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#1 Jokertecken

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:04 AM

Time for a new one
 

So my QB ranks are as follows
Rosen
Mayfield
Darnold
Jackson
Allen
Rudolph


I agree with those rankings for the most part, Liger. Flip Allen and Rudolph for me though

Edited by Jokertecken, 12 February 2018 - 10:05 AM.


#2 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:08 AM

Time for a new one
 

I agree with those rankings for the most part, Liger. Flip Allen and Rudolph for me though

I actually thought about that. Allen for me is so much of a project. Maybe with better talent around him he will be magically better but watching his game tape this past year, woof. I would take Jackson over him any day of the week and twice on Sunday. 



#3 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:11 AM

Allen is definitely 6th for me. I get how teams are going to fall in love with the physical tools, but I still have yet to see any QB who magically developed accuracy. Allen is fool's gold. Sure, his ceiling is higher than Rudolph's, but he also has like a 1% chance of hitting it where I think Rudolph is likely to be a Dalton-level starter.*

 

The thought of a Dalton-level starter is in no way, shape, or form, exciting to me...but is still preferable to drafting the next EJ.

 

Edit: I concur with Liger's ranking otherwise, though flipping Jackson and Darnold is quite tempting to me.


Edited by TrueBlueGED, 12 February 2018 - 10:11 AM.


#4 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:27 AM

I think the Bills will take Rudolph but I think Jackson has more upside. 



#5 Gramps

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:29 AM

Allen is definitely 6th for me. I get how teams are going to fall in love with the physical tools, but I still have yet to see any QB who magically developed accuracy. Allen is fool's gold. Sure, his ceiling is higher than Rudolph's, but he also has like a 1% chance of hitting it where I think Rudolph is likely to be a Dalton-level starter.*

 

The thought of a Dalton-level starter is in no way, shape, or form, exciting to me...but is still preferable to drafting the next EJ.

 

Edit: I concur with Liger's ranking otherwise, though flipping Jackson and Darnold is quite tempting to me.

 

Lots of scouts think differently on Allen - he'll be gone before the Bills pick so no worries about taking him. 



#6 inkman

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:31 AM

Lots of scouts think differently on Allen - he'll be gone before the Bills pick so no worries about taking him.


The only positives I've heard about him is arm strength. Even from his biggest supporters. Not sure why you'd draft the next JaMarcus Russell.

#7 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:34 AM

Lots of scouts think differently on Allen - he'll be gone before the Bills pick so no worries about taking him. 

 

Scouts mistakenly get enamored with tools all the time, thinking along the lines of "we just need to coach up the mechanics and it'll be fine." Except that never actually happens. Just in recent Buffalo history we've had Losman, Fitz, and EJ who were all "fix mechanics to fix accuracy" guys, and the accuracy was never fixed. And there are countless examples around the league of the same thing happening. Scouts/GMs/coaches are oftentimes their own worst enemies.



#8 Gramps

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

Scouts mistakenly get enamored with tools all the time, thinking along the lines of "we just need to coach up the mechanics and it'll be fine." Except that never actually happens. Just in recent Buffalo history we've had Losman, Fitz, and EJ who were all "fix mechanics to fix accuracy" guys, and the accuracy was never fixed. And there are countless examples around the league of the same thing happening. Scouts/GMs/coaches are oftentimes their own worst enemies.

 

Good points but what we don't see in many cases is how many catchable passes were dropped, how many passes were thrown away, did said QB have receivers that could actually get open, etc. Dan Marino never hit a 60% completion ratio in college and threw a boatload of picks. No college QB is a sure thing.



#9 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:45 AM

I'm posting this here for everyone to reference whenever someone says our schedule is easy/hard next season because of this season's records.

http://www.sharpfoot...ule-information

Friends don't let friends think one season's record predicts the next.

#10 inkman

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:55 AM

I'm posting this here for everyone to reference whenever someone says our schedule is easy/hard next season because of this season's records.

http://www.sharpfoot...ule-information

Friends don't let friends think one season's record predicts the next.

Amen. Praise jeebus.

#11 blåbär

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:51 PM

Allen is definitely 6th for me. I get how teams are going to fall in love with the physical tools, but I still have yet to see any QB who magically developed accuracy. Allen is fool's gold. Sure, his ceiling is higher than Rudolph's, but he also has like a 1% chance of hitting it where I think Rudolph is likely to be a Dalton-level starter.*

 

The thought of a Dalton-level starter is in no way, shape, or form, exciting to me...but is still preferable to drafting the next EJ.

 

Edit: I concur with Liger's ranking otherwise, though flipping Jackson and Darnold is quite tempting to me.

 

The bolded ones seem pretty much the same to me, besides the fact Jackson can run.

I'd just this QB class sucks really and would stay clear of it.   

 

If you can't get one from the vikings 3 , stick with Taylor for 3 more years and wait for the next crop to show up.



#12 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:17 PM

I disagree highly that Allen and Jackson are similar. It isn't even about the running. Jackson completed 254 passes last season. Allen only even attempted 270. Jackson had 27td passes to Allen at 16. The difference isn't Jackson runs, it is that he's better at qb.

#13 Gramps

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:43 PM

I disagree highly that Allen and Jackson are similar. It isn't even about the running. Jackson completed 254 passes last season. Allen only even attempted 270. Jackson had 27td passes to Allen at 16. The difference isn't Jackson runs, it is that he's better at qb.

 

Didn't Allen miss a few games ? 



#14 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:47 PM

The bolded ones seem pretty much the same to me, besides the fact Jackson can run.
I'd just this QB class sucks really and would stay clear of it.

If you can't get one from the vikings 3 , stick with Taylor for 3 more years and wait for the next crop to show up.


I disagree with literally this entire post :lol:

#15 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:00 PM

Didn't Allen miss a few games ?

I think he played 2 less?

#16 Gramps

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:22 PM

I think he played 2 less?

 

Maybe so - I thought he got hurt during a game and missed more than a half as well. In any event, I think it's been said Daboll will be looking for a "pure passer" which fits Allen more than Jackson. However, Allen will be gone by the time the Bills draft - Jackson may be around. Most of the Super Bowl winning QBs in the last 20 years or so (with the exception of Russell Wilson) have been "pure passers".


Edited by Gramps, 14 February 2018 - 10:22 PM.


#17 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:37 PM

Jackson's still passed more than Allen. It isn't even close. Allen is overrated.

Edited by SkuggaLiger, 14 February 2018 - 10:37 PM.


#18 Gramps

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:46 PM

Jackson's still passed more than Allen. It isn't even close. Allen is overrated.

 

Jackson reminds me of Vince Young and we all know how that ended. 



#19 Jokertecken

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:01 PM

Jackson reminds me of Vince Young and we all know how that ended. 

He is nothing like Vince Young. Couldn't actually be further from Young, or Tyrod for that matter

 

On a similar note, Manziel himself has come out and said Baker is nothing like him either



#20 Brawndo

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:15 PM

He is nothing like Vince Young. Couldn't actually be further from Young, or Tyrod for that matter
 
On a similar note, Manziel himself has come out and said Baker is nothing like him either


The only comparison between those five is they all played QB

#21 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 08:45 AM

He is nothing like Vince Young. Couldn't actually be further from Young, or Tyrod for that matter

 

On a similar note, Manziel himself has come out and said Baker is nothing like him either

 

You or I will never know that answer until Jackson plays in the pros. And I don't put a lot of stock in what Manziel says with his track record.

 

And if Jackson was all that, they'd be talking about him going in the top 5. Never hit 60% completion % in any season. 


Edited by Gramps, 15 February 2018 - 08:47 AM.


#22 ubkev

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:09 AM

And if Jackson was all that, they'd be talking about him going in the top 5. Never hit 60% completion % in any season.


Neither did Dan Marino. Just sayin.

#23 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:18 AM

You or I will never know that answer until Jackson plays in the pros. And I don't put a lot of stock in what Manziel says with his track record.

 

And if Jackson was all that, they'd be talking about him going in the top 5. Never hit 60% completion % in any season. 

What is Josh Allen? 



#24 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:19 AM

Neither did Dan Marino. Just sayin.

 

Neither did Josh Allen. Just sayin. 



#25 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:37 AM

Neither did Josh Allen. Just sayin. 

 

Here is my issue. Allen looks inaccurate and the stats show that. Jackson looks more accurate. The stats kinda show that. I want a guy who has thrown more. I want that experience. 

 

Jackson: 839 passes in the last 2 years (attempted)

Allen: 643 passes in the last 2 years (attempted)

 

Odd that the "running QB" has thrown 24% more passes than the pocket guy. 

More stats. Allen only threw 16td passes to 6 interceptions last year, a difference of 10.  Jackson throw 27 TD passes with 10 interceptions (4 in his bowl game) for a difference of 17. 

Passing yards a game:

Allen - 228.8 was his most in college (2016)

Jackson - 281.5 was his most (2017)

 

Completion percentage:

Allen -

2016: 56%

2017: 56.3%

 

Jackson - 

2016: 56.2%

2017: 59.1%

 

Yards a season:

Allen - 

2016: 3203

2017: 1812

 

Jackson - 

2016: 3543

2017: 3660

 

Longest pass:

Allen - 

2016: 54

2017: 47

 

Jackson - 

2016: 74

2017: 78

 

Games played:

Allen - 25 games (I am not counting his sophomore year where he threw 6 passes in 2 games)

Jackson - 38 games

 

Highlights: Allen

 

Jackson

 

I just want to add that we could have done this with Rudolph too. I just was lazy and didn't add his stats. Rudolph has potential too. 


Edited by SkuggaLiger, 15 February 2018 - 09:58 AM.


#26 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:50 AM

Here is my issue. Allen looks inaccurate and the stats show that. Jackson looks more accurate. The stats kinda show that. I want a guy who has thrown more. I want that experience. 

 

Jackson: 839 passes in the last 2 years (attempted)

Allen: 643 passes in the last 2 years (attempted)

 

Odd that the "running QB" has thrown 24% more passes than the pocket guy. 

More stats. Allen only threw 16td passes to 6 interceptions last year, a difference of 10.  Jackson throw 27 TD passes with 10 interceptions (4 in his bowl game) for a difference of 17. 

Passing yards a game:

Allen - 228.8 was his most in college (2016)

Jackson - 281.5 was his most (2017)

 

Completion percentage:

Allen -

2016: 56%

2017: 56.3%

 

Jackson - 

2016: 56.2%

2017: 59.1%

 

Yards a season:

Allen - 

2016: 3203

2017: 1812

 

Jackson - 

2016: 3543

2017: 3660

 

Longest pass:

Allen - 

2016: 54

2017: 47

 

Jackson - 

2016: 74

2017: 78

 

Games played:

Allen - 25 games (I am not counting his sophomore year where he threw 6 passes in 2 games)

Jackson - 38 games

 

Highlights: Allen

 

Jackson

 

I just want to add that we could have done this with Rudolph too. I just was lazy and didn't add his stats. Rudolph has potential too. 

 

Thanks for taking the time for the breakout, but none of those stats is a predictor for how Allen, Jackson, Rudolph, or anyone else will do at the pro level. I hear folks saying Daboll wants a "pure passer".  What does that mean exactly ? Does it mean someone with a great arm that can make any throw or does it mean the QB with the highest college completion %. 

 

I stand by the law of precedent in Super Bowl champions. In the last 20 years, all pocket passers with the exception of Russell Wilson.

 

Brady, Roethlisberger, both Mannings, Elway, Warner, Brees, and most recently Foles all pocket passers.


Edited by Gramps, 15 February 2018 - 09:58 AM.


#27 Jokertecken

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:57 AM

Thanks for taking the time for the breakout, but none of those stats is a predictor for how Allen, Jackson, Rudolph, or anyone else will do at the pro level. I hear folks saying Daboll wants a "pure passer".  What does that mean exactly ? Does it mean someone with a great arm that can make any throw or does it mean the QB with the highest college completion %. 

 

I stand by the law of precedent in Super Bowl champions. In the last 20 years, all pocket passers with the exception of Russell Wilson. Brady, Roethlisberger, both Mannings, Elway, Warner, Brees, and most recently Foles. 

What?



#28 SwampD

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:58 AM

Thanks for taking the time for the breakout, but none of those stats is a predictor for how Allen, Jackson, Rudolph, or anyone else will do at the pro level. I hear folks saying Daboll wants a "pure passer". What does that mean exactly ? Does it mean someone with a great arm that can make any throw or does it mean the QB with the highest college completion %.

I stand by the law of precedent in Super Bowl champions. In the last 20 years, all pocket passers with the exception of Russell Wilson. Brady, Roethlisberger, both Mannings, Elway, Warner, Brees, and most recently Foles.

If Wilson isn't a pocket passer then neither is Roethlesberger. They both extend plays with their feet the same way.

I don't know nothin from nothing when it come to college football, but from what I've seen I'd take Jackson over Allen.

#29 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:09 AM

I changed highlights videos because the 2nd Jackson one I found actually shows him throwing more which he did. He throws more than runs. 

 

Allen isn't a pocket passer. Not purely. He rolls out a lot. Allen also never seems to set his feet. He is always doing something else and then throws it. Jackson even when he rolls out or is flushed, head is up and he sets and throws.  There are just more things fundamentally sound with Lamar.  Allen is all potential that frankly I am not sure he will ever even approach. Canon arm. Prototypical size. Accuracy and mechanics questions. 


Here is just Jackson throwing. It just looks right. Allen doesn't to me and idk what I am seeing but something just seems off when I watch Allen throw and it doesn't when I watch Jackson. 


I just want to add, I personally think we should take Mayfield and if he isn't there, probably trade back in the first and take Rudolph. 


Edited by SkuggaLiger, 15 February 2018 - 10:02 AM.


#30 Jokertecken

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:10 AM

I just want to add, I personally think we should take Mayfield and if he isn't there, probably trade back in the first and take Rudolph. 

My man

 

WGR keeps reporting from other sources that the Bills really want Rosen



#31 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:11 AM

Big time Lamar threw 4 interceptions in the Taxslayer Bowl. 

 

Allen will go higher in the draft than Jackson - no doubt in my mind. 


If Wilson isn't a pocket passer then neither is Roethlesberger. They both extend plays with their feet the same way.

I don't know nothin from nothing when it come to college football, but from what I've seen I'd take Jackson over Allen.

 

No comparison - the Seahawks designed plays around Wilson's mobility. Not the case for the Steelers.



#32 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:19 AM

Big time Lamar threw 4 interceptions in the Taxslayer Bowl. 

 

Allen will go higher in the draft than Jackson - no doubt in my mind. 


 

No comparison - the Seahawks designed plays around Wilson's mobility. Not the case for the Steelers.

Okay and? I already said that. He threw 10 interceptions all year. 4 came in 1 game. Allen threw 6 total. SO if you remove the Bowl Game they threw the exact same number of interceptions but one of them threw 11 more TDS. 

 

 

 

 

Mason Rudolph, 6'5" 230lbs

Comp %

2015 - 62.3%

2016 - 63.4%

2017 - 65%

 

Completions

2015 - 264

2016 - 284

2017 - 318

 

Yards

2015 - 3770

2016 - 4091

2017 - 4904

 

Longest

2015 - 82

2016 - 91

2017 - 86

 

Yrds per Game

2015 - 290

2016 - 314.7

2017 - 377.2

 

Tds to interceptions

2015 - 21/9

2016 - 28/4

2017 - 37/9

 

Highlights


Edited by SkuggaLiger, 15 February 2018 - 10:20 AM.


#33 Jokertecken

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:24 AM

Big time Lamar threw 4 interceptions in the Taxslayer Bowl. 

 

Allen will go higher in the draft than Jackson - no doubt in my mind. 


 

No comparison - the Seahawks designed plays around Wilson's mobility. Not the case for the Steelers.

That doesn't make them right though

 

So the Seahawks are insanely successful and have a mobile QB. Why is that a bad thing



#34 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:27 AM

As proven by Dan Marino and I'm sure others, college stats for the most part can be tossed as evidence of future NFL success. How many sure hit QBs have failed and never made it in the NFL ? None of us know as amateur scouts what Daboll / Beane / McDermott are thinking and none of us know which QBs will be available when the Bills draft. 

 

All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a pocket passer - not saying it has to be Allen as I think Allen will be gone by the time the Bills pick. 



#35 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:29 AM

As proven by Dan Marino and I'm sure others, college stats for the most part can be tossed as evidence of future NFL success. How many sure hit QBs have failed and never made it in the NFL ? None of us know as amateur scouts what Daboll / Beane / McDermott are thinking and none of us know which QBs will be available when the Bills draft. 

 

All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a pocket passer - not saying it has to be Allen as I think Allen will be gone by the time the Bills pick. 

If I had the choice between Allen and Rudolph at 21, I am taking Rudolph because he is more of pocket passer than Allen. 



#36 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:29 AM

That doesn't make them right though

 

So the Seahawks are insanely successful and have a mobile QB. Why is that a bad thing

 

How many rings do they have ? And Brady ? Roethlisberger ? Both Mannings ? 



#37 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:30 AM

How many rings do they have ? And Brady ? Roethlisberger ? Both Mannings ? 

You can't include Brady in comparison for anything. He has 5 rings and has been MVP 4 times. The guy is the best maybe ever. 



#38 Gramps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:32 AM

You can't include Brady in comparison for anything. He has 5 rings and has been MVP 4 times. The guy is the best maybe ever. 

 

And he is a pocket passer ...



#39 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:35 AM

And he is a pocket passer ...

Your trying to argue Lamar Jackson isn't a pocket passer and it isn't true. He can run and does but when he passes, it is from the pocket. How many of Allen's passes are roll outs on play action? Most of them. That said if you really want a pocket passer at 21, take Rudolph. He has the potential to be a good starter. 


Edited by SkuggaLiger, 15 February 2018 - 10:35 AM.


#40 Jokertecken

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:58 AM

How many rings do they have ? And Brady ? Roethlisberger ? Both Mannings ? 

You put one stat about how all of these guys are the best, and then when I say he's one of the best, you say yeah, but he's not the best of the best.

 

Yeah, so he's not one of two of the best QBs ever in Manning and Brady, and he didn't have the defenses Ben and Eli had. How many rings does Rodgers have btw? Or pocket-passing Matt Ryan? How about pocket-passing Kyle Orton, or pocket-passing Rex Grossman?