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Can This Franchise Be Saved? How Long Will It Take?


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#201 GASabresIUFAN

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 03:12 PM

I asked for audition mode 11 games ago and it seems to showing some tangible results. Wilson, Erod, Nelson, and Antipin have all stepped up and shown they could have a future here. Guys like Baloo are still lost in the wilderness.

With the distraction of Kane over, the next 19 games Jbot and Housley should continue to throw guys in any situation and see who sinks and who swims. We have another 15-20 minute per game to distribute including some pk and pp time. I wouldn’t mind seeing Wilson get the special teams time.

#202 dudacek

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 03:17 PM

With the distraction of Kane over, the next 19 games Jbot and Housley should continue to throw guys in any situation and see who sinks and who swims. We have another 15-20 minute per game to distribute including some pk and pp time. I wouldn’t mind seeing Wilson get the special teams time.

Nothing against Wilson, but I am much more interested in auditioning Baptiste.

I get that the brass wants him to develop an effective bottom six game, but there is little doubt he has more unlocked goal scoring skills than anyone other than the big four. It’s a shame he’s not a left wing for an even strength look.

It would be an even bigger shame if he continues to slot behind Pominville.

Edited by Mick O’Manly, 27 February 2018 - 03:18 PM.


#203 woods-racer

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 03:23 PM

There has to be a group that is nervous that this is their last shot to show they belong in the NHL. Desperate to earn a paycheck hockey isn't nearly as good as fighting for a playoff spot hockey, but they should be better and more entertaining than Nov/Dec Sabres hockey.



#204 GASabresIUFAN

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 03:40 PM

Nothing against Wilson, but I am much more interested in auditioning Baptiste.
I get that the brass wants him to develop an effective bottom six game, but there is little doubt he has more unlocked goal scoring skills than anyone other than the big four. It’s a shame he’s not a left wing for an even strength look.
It would be an even bigger shame if he continues to slot behind Pominville.


I went and looked at who is doing what in the month of Feb, but the Sabres don’t really seem to be giving Baptiste a chance. He is playing only 8 minutes a night since his recall. No one can show what they can do with such little PT. I agree that I’d like to see him get more time, but so far that doesn’t seem like it’s in the plans.

#205 Radar

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 04:01 PM

As people look at our team and what should be done one thing I think comes to my mind first is our head coach. Yes this team needs more talented players. But I have felt all year like they are much better than their record and I still feel that way. I was happy when they hired Housley but I'm seriously doubting him as a head coach particularly of this team. No I'm not saying fire him now but if this team isn't a lot better on or around Thanksgiving next season no matter who they add or subtract from our roster Phil is the first place I would be looking to change.

#206 PerreaultForever

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 04:06 PM

Another rumor I heard from a well-placed source this morning:  The dressing room is a shambles, with four or five factions of players battling for control.

Can I ask for proof this time? 

You hear this rumor every year but there's no names and no proof. Who is fighting with whom? What factions? Who is the problem(s)? If you can't identify that or name the names its all fake news.

 

Of course this franchise can be save but who knows how long it will take. Probably several years in the best case scenario. All going to depend on how well Botterill drafts because no one outside of greedy unwanted players are going to want to join this s*&tshow until it starts to get turned around. They have to ruthlessly remove all the slackers and problems and build from the bottom up. Kane is gone, so who is supposed to be the problem now? Prove it and run him (them) out of town.

 

This franchise has been down before. It CAN come back. It's going to take a LOT of new bodies though. Peca types. Drury types. Competitive leaders. Without that, forget it. 



#207 nfreeman

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 04:12 PM


This franchise has been down before. It CAN come back. It's going to take a LOT of new bodies though. Peca types. Drury types. Competitive leaders. Without that, forget it. 

 

I completely agree with the bolded.  ROR was supposed to provide this and it's now clear IMHO that he just isn't that guy.

 

I'm not sure who on the roster might fit the bill. 



#208 Doohickie

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 04:58 PM

I think Baptiste may grow into that.  When he's out there he's generally the player with the highest energy.


Can I ask for proof this time? 

You hear this rumor every year but there's no names and no proof. Who is fighting with whom? What factions? Who is the problem(s)? If you can't identify that or name the names its all fake news.

 

Of course this franchise can be save but who knows how long it will take. Probably several years in the best case scenario. All going to depend on how well Botterill drafts because no one outside of greedy unwanted players are going to want to join this s*&tshow until it starts to get turned around. They have to ruthlessly remove all the slackers and problems and build from the bottom up. Kane is gone, so who is supposed to be the problem now? Prove it and run him (them) out of town.

 

This franchise has been down before. It CAN come back. It's going to take a LOT of new bodies though. Peca types. Drury types. Competitive leaders. Without that, forget it. 

 

It was obviously Kane, that's why they traded him.



#209 Thorny

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 05:26 PM

I completely agree with the bolded.  ROR was supposed to provide this and it's now clear IMHO that he just isn't that guy.
 
I'm not sure who on the roster might fit the bill.

I think Baptiste may grow into that.  When he's out there he's generally the player with the highest energy.

 
It was obviously Kane, that's why they traded him.


EICHEL! Come on guys, we know he’s ultra competitive and hates losing. Drury had the luxury of walking into a fully formed and successful Avalanche roster with name like Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Foote, Blake, Bourque, etc etc etc. Imagine how little leadership burden was on him, and what he was able to pick up?

Jack will get there, he just needs some time. He’ll need some leadership help like anyone else, but he’ll be the Captain that others will follow.

#210 nfreeman

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 05:41 PM

EICHEL! Come on guys, we know he’s ultra competitive and hates losing. Drury had the luxury of walking into a fully formed and successful Avalanche roster with name like Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Foote, Blake, Bourque, etc etc etc. Imagine how little leadership burden was on him, and what he was able to pick up?

Jack will get there, he just needs some time. He’ll need some leadership help like anyone else, but he’ll be the Captain that others will follow.

 

I sure hope so. 

 

It takes more than talent and temper tantrums after losses though -- you need a guy who burns to win, who busts his butt whenever he's on the ice and who knows that it only works by taking practice, preparation and fitness very seriously.



#211 We've

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:09 PM

Can I ask for proof this time? 

You hear this rumor every year but there's no names and no proof. Who is fighting with whom? What factions? Who is the problem(s)? If you can't identify that or name the names its all fake news.

 

Of course this franchise can be save but who knows how long it will take. Probably several years in the best case scenario. All going to depend on how well Botterill drafts because no one outside of greedy unwanted players are going to want to join this s*&tshow until it starts to get turned around. They have to ruthlessly remove all the slackers and problems and build from the bottom up. Kane is gone, so who is supposed to be the problem now? Prove it and run him (them) out of town.

 

This franchise has been down before. It CAN come back. It's going to take a LOT of new bodies though. Peca types. Drury types. Competitive leaders. Without that, forget it. 

 

How does someone prove "a rumor I heard"?  Do we invite the source onto the forum and state their case?  Is the burden of proof 51/49 like in a civil case, or does the whole forum membership require irrefutable evidence?

 

 

FWIW, I know Eleven well enough IRL to believe he travels in circles that would include people in the know.  I have no proof of that.  We've just drank whiskey together a few times, once in a real fancy place.  I can't prove that either, unless the security tapes are released.

 

*waits for the next invite*

 

 

 

 

BTW, this all supposed to be tongue in cheek.

 

Except for the invite part.

 

Really.


Edited by We've, 27 February 2018 - 06:36 PM.


#212 PerreaultForever

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:52 PM

How does someone prove "a rumor I heard"?  Do we invite the source onto the forum and state their case?  Is the burden of proof 51/49 like in a civil case, or does the whole forum membership require irrefutable evidence?

 

I get it, the veteran board member can state a rumor and doesn't have to prove it but you should recognize that less entrenched members make a similar post and if it's not a popular view they will be asked for this "proof". In the Kane trade thread I was challenged to "prove" that Botterill had a better offer months ago. I can't of course. I remember Dreger or McKenzie or somebody saying Buffalo wanted more than a first and a prospect but I'm old, I don't remember when that was. So no, no proof, rum or otherwise. 

Let's just be fair and hold everyone to the same standard ok? Rumors are rumors no matter who states them and unless you have proof, it is just a rumor.

 

On the leadership issue, I think they have to give Eichel the C, but they also have to first ditch anyone else they might think is a bad influence on him. Put him in the position where he is the leader and he has to be the leader or we fail. I wonder about Reinhart in that regard. The bond they seem to have, is it good for the team, especially considering the difference in their talent and competitiveness? I don't know, I have no reason to believe anyone else is an issue, but I think it has to be Jack's team. 



#213 We've

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:56 PM

I get it, the veteran board member can state a rumor and doesn't have to prove it but you should recognize that less entrenched members make a similar post and if it's not a popular view they will be asked for this "proof". In the Kane trade thread I was challenged to "prove" that Botterill had a better offer months ago. I can't of course. I remember Dreger or McKenzie or somebody saying Buffalo wanted more than a first and a prospect but I'm old, I don't remember when that was. So no, no proof, rum or otherwise. 

Let's just be fair and hold everyone to the same standard ok? Rumors are rumors no matter who states them and unless you have proof, it is just a rumor.

 

On the leadership issue, I think they have to give Eichel the C, but they also have to first ditch anyone else they might think is a bad influence on him. Put him in the position where he is the leader and he has to be the leader or we fail. I wonder about Reinhart in that regard. The bond they seem to have, is it good for the team, especially considering the difference in their talent and competitiveness? I don't know, I have no reason to believe anyone else is an issue, but I think it has to be Jack's team. 

 

Did you not get all the way down to the tongue in cheek part?

 

And I did do the same to veteran posters in recent days.  But this one was an attempt at humor, otherwise I'm reading like a broken record.  Again.

 

*skip*

 

Again

 

*skip*

 

Again.


Edited by We've, 27 February 2018 - 06:57 PM.


#214 PerreaultForever

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:59 PM

Did you not get all the way down to the tongue in cheek part?

 

 

Did you not hear me? I'm old. I can't be expected to read all the way to the bottom.

 

 

Actually saw that after but hey, it's no big.


Edited by PerreaultForever, 27 February 2018 - 07:00 PM.


#215 GASabresIUFAN

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:05 PM

As people look at our team and what should be done one thing I think comes to my mind first is our head coach. Yes this team needs more talented players. But I have felt all year like they are much better than their record and I still feel that way. I was happy when they hired Housley but I'm seriously doubting him as a head coach particularly of this team. No I'm not saying fire him now but if this team isn't a lot better on or around Thanksgiving next season no matter who they add or subtract from our roster Phil is the first place I would be looking to change.


Radar is your last name Sullivan by any chance?

#216 Radar

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:31 PM

Radar is your last name Sullivan by any chance?


No, but if he feels the same that's fine. I'm assuming your talking about Jerry Sullivan. I've stopped reading or listening to sports talk or TBN haven't for a long time.

#217 pi2000

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:35 PM

As people look at our team and what should be done one thing I think comes to my mind first is our head coach. Yes this team needs more talented players. But I have felt all year like they are much better than their record and I still feel that way. I was happy when they hired Housley but I'm seriously doubting him as a head coach particularly of this team. No I'm not saying fire him now but if this team isn't a lot better on or around Thanksgiving next season no matter who they add or subtract from our roster Phil is the first place I would be looking to change.

 

I agree. 

 

Bylsma did much better with a worse roster.   

 

I'm not saying Bylsma is the answer, but when comparing apples to apples Housley is doing much worse than Bylsma did. 



#218 darksabre

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:49 PM

I agree.

Bylsma did much better with a worse roster.

I'm not saying Bylsma is the answer, but when comparing apples to apples Housley is doing much worse than Bylsma did.


This is false, as has been shown by Flagg's analysis of the lack of depth scoring from this current roster to that of Bylsma's rosters. Despite my not caring for them much, Foligno, Ennis and Gionta were important to Bylsma's "success". Housley hasn't had even those mediocre depth players at his disposal.

#219 pi2000

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 08:12 PM

This is false, as has been shown by Flagg's analysis of the lack of depth scoring from this current roster to that of Bylsma's rosters. Despite my not caring for them much, Foligno, Ennis and Gionta were important to Bylsma's "success". Housley hasn't had even those mediocre depth players at his disposal.

 

Foligno, Ennis and Gionta accounted for 33 goals in 16-17.

 

Girgensons, Pouliot and Pominville have accounted for 27 goals this year, and there's still 20 games remaining. 

 

Let me put it this way, BUF has 151 goals through 63 games.   That's 2.4 goals per game.

 

The 16-17 team had 201 goals through 82 games, or 2.5 goals per game.

 

The reason for their suckitude this year is they're giving up 3.3 goals per game, compared to 2.9 last season.    That's almost half a goal a game worse, with no increase in offensive production.     

 

Depth scoring is not the issue, it's how they play defense and defend.... that's coaching IMO. 


Edited by pi2000, 27 February 2018 - 08:14 PM.


#220 GASabresIUFAN

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 08:21 PM

Foligno, Ennis and Gionta accounted for 33 goals in 16-17.
 
Girgensons, Pouliot and Pominville have accounted for 27 goals this year, and there's still 20 games remaining. 
 
Let me put it this way, BUF has 151 goals through 63 games.   That's 2.4 goals per game.
 
The 16-17 team had 201 goals through 82 games, or 2.5 goals per game.
 
The reason for their suckitude this year is they're giving up 3.3 goals per game, compared to 2.9 last season.    That's almost half a goal a game worse, with no increase in offensive production.     
 
Depth scoring is not the issue, it's how they play defense and defend.... that's coaching IMO.


Please don’t start another roster vs system debate. That said do really believe 2.4 gf is enough to field a good hockey team? Couldn’t we make the argument that if we had a better offense, we’d spend more time in the offensive zone thereby limiting the chances against Lehner and our over matched D group?

#221 pi2000

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 10:03 PM

Please don’t start another roster vs system debate. That said do really believe 2.4 gf is enough to field a good hockey team? Couldn’t we make the argument that if we had a better offense, we’d spend more time in the offensive zone thereby limiting the chances against Lehner and our over matched D group?


Yes, you could make that argument. But I would argue that neither coach is getting enough offensive production out of these players, and Housley has certainly done worse on the goals against side of things.

#222 dudacek

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 12:05 AM

 
Depth scoring is not the issue, it's how they play defense and defend.... that's coaching IMO.


They’ve got 50 goals combined from forwards 6-13 and D 3-7.
And Reinhart and Okposo didn’t score in the first half and Kane and Pominville disappeared in the second.
Depth scoring is a huge issue.

#223 PerreaultForever

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 12:50 AM

When Housley was hired what did he say? He said it "was going to be fast."  Remember that? Well it hasn't been. We play a slow plodding style with very poor passing. If you have a version of center ice watch the Sabres for 5-10 minutes and then flick over to the Leafs or Flyers or pretty much any playoff team and note how much faster that game looks to ours. Almost every time. 

Bylsma used his experience from when he had the Pens without Crosby and he got them to check, slow things down and clog things up. That system either fit these guys better or they can't unlearn it. Either way, most of the time this team does not give us even a bad attempt at what Housley promised. Speed does win in this league, it is the right idea, but this team seems incapable of playing that way. 



#224 North Buffalo

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 01:30 AM

When Housley was hired what did he say? He said it "was going to be fast."  Remember that? Well it hasn't been. We play a slow plodding style with very poor passing. If you have a version of center ice watch the Sabres for 5-10 minutes and then flick over to the Leafs or Flyers or pretty much any playoff team and note how much faster that game looks to ours. Almost every time. 
Bylsma used his experience from when he had the Pens without Crosby and he got them to check, slow things down and clog things up. That system either fit these guys better or they can't unlearn it. Either way, most of the time this team does not give us even a bad attempt at what Housley promised. Speed does win in this league, it is the right idea, but this team seems incapable of playing that way.

Hence why this team needs a full turnover. Need to bring up guys who can skate ans pass. Hard to wait but it may be another two years. Trade OReilly... too slow... trade Sam not motivated enough, Keep OK he has wheels... bye Larry I love you but bye... Pulliott only occasional wheels... bye... Bogo meh bye... Girgenson is a train wreck...bye, Pommer love the guy no longer has wheels bye, Gorges bye, Falk meh physical not enough skill...buh bye, Beaulieu no brains bye, Joefson bye, Nolan by, Antipin learn English... bye... Keep Wilson and Nelson... McCabe... bye not enough speed... Need to sign and draft players with some speed and smarts... Dhalin with Ghule ps this isnt gonna happen this next year... gonna need at least two more years crap.