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Training camp questions #14: who will surprise us?


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#81 Anordning

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 02:40 PM

Fancy stats will back him up.



#82 Alkoholist

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 03:14 PM

I agree, but if Samson only matches this year's point total, there's going to be a bunch of people yelling bust. They'll conveniently ignore the drop in ice time and linemate quality.

 

If he matches last year's point total or even only slightly improves them while centering the 3rd line all season I'll be ecstatic. At that point I'll be campaigning for us to stop coddling the big money centers (O'Reilly and Eichel) with all the good wingers.


Even a slight drop in his production would be understandable given the things you stated (decreased TOI and lower quality linemates).


Edited by Drunkard, 26 September 2017 - 03:15 PM.


#83 Pokey Jones

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:25 PM

I agree, but if Samson only matches this year's point total, there's going to be a bunch of people yelling bust. They'll conveniently ignore the drop in ice time and linemate quality.

Ummm, don't you earn your ice time with your play? 



#84 Didriko

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:43 PM

I agree, but if Samson only matches this year's point total, there's going to be a bunch of people yelling bust. They'll conveniently ignore the drop in ice time and linemate quality.


Or if he is invisible there will be a bunch of ppl yelling this excuse.

Edited by Derrico, 26 September 2017 - 04:44 PM.


#85 MattiPaj

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:44 PM

Ummm, don't you earn your ice time with your play? 

 

You do, but having two really strong centers ahead of you is going to make that a tough row to hoe. But, if Samson ends up being better than Jack or ROR I think we all, even you :), will be ecstatic.


Or if he is invisible there will be a bunch of ppl yelling this excuse.

 

Also true! Samson is in either a no-win or no-lose situation depending on how the observer was predisposed to view him!


Edited by MattPie, 26 September 2017 - 04:45 PM.


#86 Thorny

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:54 PM

You do, but having two really strong centers ahead of you is going to make that a tough row to hoe. But, if Samson ends up being better than Jack or ROR I think we all, even you :), will be ecstatic.

 
Also true! Samson is in either a no-win or no-lose situation depending on how the observer was predisposed to view him!


I dunno, I'm hoping to be able to see it both ways. If Samson stinks up the joint at centre, even with the likes of Pouliot and Bailey as his wings, I'd be comfortable with him moving back to wing and calling it a day. A good centre should be able to elevate those around him at least somewhat. I don't expect him to carry the line, but if we aren't even seeing flashes, he'd probably be best suited to wing.

I'm hoping and thinking he'll do well at C. We'll just have to wait and see.

#87 We've

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 06:16 PM

I dunno, I'm hoping to be able to see it both ways. If Samson stinks up the joint at centre, even with the likes of Pouliot and Bailey as his wings, I'd be comfortable with him moving back to wing and calling it a day. A good centre should be able to elevate those around him at least somewhat. I don't expect him to carry the line, but if we aren't even seeing flashes, he'd probably be best suited to wing.

I'm hoping and thinking he'll do well at C. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

I don't think Sam is likely to stink it up at center.  But I don't think he'll create some great 3rd line mismatches either.

 

He'll be successful enough that the Sam-for-center crowd will be mollified, but I expect there will still be a strong argument that he's more valuable as Jack's RW.



#88 DarthBerusad

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 06:53 PM

Lehner. He stops 65+ percent of his shootout attempts, plus a .922 save percentage. Backstops us to a very good OT/SO record (and the playoffs).

Alternately, Reinhart shows us he's the versatile X-wing of the forward flight. Pads his numbers on the PP, but by end of season shows us what we really need to know about secondary scoring. 22-48-70.

#89 Pokey Jones

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 07:49 PM

If Housley thought Reinhart and Eichel were good compliments for each other they'd be together. I think he feels Reinhart is too slow, he wants Eichel's line to play a faster game and Eichel will be paired with whoever can do that. Probably Kane and Pommer to start, maybe Rodrigues. 



#90 Thorny

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:02 PM

I don't think Sam is likely to stink it up at center.  But I don't think he'll create some great 3rd line mismatches either.
 
He'll be successful enough that the Sam-for-center crowd will be mollified, but I expect there will still be a strong argument that he's more valuable as Jack's RW.


That's fair. As mentioned I'd likely fall into the first category if he's achieving some decent success there. I'd certainly be open to moving him back to wing if he's not excelling there, but I'd be happy with where he's at.

#91 Mick O’Manly

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:07 PM

If Housley thought Reinhart and Eichel were good compliments for each other they'd be together. I think he feels Reinhart is too slow, he wants Eichel's line to play a faster game and Eichel will be paired with whoever can do that. Probably Kane and Pommer to start, maybe Rodrigues.

Is Pommer still faster than Andreyc--- I mean Reinhart?
Sam can't skate, he's soft as butter, he's got a bad attitude...

Larsson's faster and tougher, he should be the third line centre.

I mean there are like eight or nine more effective forwards in the lineup. The advanced stats clearly lie in his case.
We're probably best sliding him into Moulson's spot with sheltered fourth line minutes and some PP time.

Seriously, there have been like at least three players who have scored more points than him from his draft year and nearly a dozen who have more career points since the 2013 draft.

Why wait until he finishes five years in the league or turns 24?
Bust already and it will only get worse.

Edited by dudacek, 26 September 2017 - 08:08 PM.


#92 3putt

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:25 PM

Is Pommer still faster than Andreyc--- I mean Reinhart?
Sam can't skate, he's soft as butter, he's got a bad attitude...
Larsson's faster and tougher, he should be the third line centre.
I mean there are like eight or nine more effective forwards in the lineup. The advanced stats clearly lie in his case.
We're probably best sliding him into Moulson's spot with sheltered fourth line minutes and some PP time.
Seriously, there have been like at least three players who have scored more points than him from his draft year and nearly a dozen who have more career points since the 2013 draft.
Why wait until he finishes five years in the league or turns 24?
Bust already and it will only get worse.

Preach brother. No reason to even tune in this year. And obviously Housley "feels" the same way. Losin for Dahlin in 2018! ✌️

#93 Anordning

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:26 PM

notsure-1.jpg



#94 inkman

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:58 PM

notsure-1.jpg


Get your sarcasm radar recalibrated

#95 Anordning

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 10:18 PM

:flirt:



#96 Andrew Amerk

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 12:14 AM

Not Nylander.

#97 Pokey Jones

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 12:36 AM

Pommer WAS faster. Is he still? Dunno.  Nylander is still the projected guy I think. Pommer would be a placeholder to allow the other lines to build continuity.

 

Don't actually understand why so many Reinhart fans have given up on Nylander. Seems contradictory. Reinhart was rubbish when he first showed up here. Struggled big time and was sent back. Nylander doesn't seem to earn that same amount of patience.

 

I think Nylander has (so far) shown some flaws, but he is really fast and you can't teach that at this level so I see more potential. I have not given up on him yet.  



#98 blåbär

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 01:51 AM

If you are talking pure skill and speed, Josefson is the on that could surprise the most, but people been waiting for that in New Jersey for years now.



#99 Anordning

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:05 AM

Pommer WAS faster. Is he still? Dunno.  Nylander is still the projected guy I think. Pommer would be a placeholder to allow the other lines to build continuity.

 

Don't actually understand why so many Reinhart fans have given up on Nylander. Seems contradictory. Reinhart was rubbish when he first showed up here. Struggled big time and was sent back. Nylander doesn't seem to earn that same amount of patience.

 

I think Nylander has (so far) shown some flaws, but he is really fast and you can't teach that at this level so I see more potential. I have not given up on him yet.  

 

The difference, as I recall, was that after a year in the AHL, Reinhart made the NHL squad.  Nylander hasn't shown that yet.  I'm not down on him though.  Different players develop at different rates.  They drafted him because he showed the tools; eventually they should translate to the NHL.



#100 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:40 AM

The difference, as I recall, was that after a year in the AHL, Reinhart made the NHL squad.  Nylander hasn't shown that yet.  I'm not down on him though.  Different players develop at different rates.  They drafted him because he showed the tools; eventually they should translate to the NHL.

Just keep in mind that Nylander is younger for his draft year than Reinhart, played on an awful Rochester squad, and plays a game that I think will need to be tweaked to get it to work at the NHL level. He thinks he can skate around guys and forgets his teammates. This creates problems because he isn't the best player on the ice. 

 

I just want everyone to remember that Nylander is 19 and will be until March. He is still very young and we should not panic yet that a 19 year old is still trying to figure things out. 


Edited by ShadowLiger, 27 September 2017 - 08:41 AM.


#101 Taro T

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:47 AM

The difference, as I recall, was that after a year in the AHL, Reinhart made the NHL squad.  Nylander hasn't shown that yet.  I'm not down on him though.  Different players develop at different rates.  They drafted him because he showed the tools; eventually they should translate to the NHL.


No. The difference is, after a 9 game unimpressive stint in the NHL & dominating in junior, he showed up the next year much more ready for the NHL and scored 23 goals that rookie year.

He only had a cup of coffee in the AHL after Kootenay's season was done.

Nylander seemed a boy among men against AHLers & didn't show anything while having HIS cup of coffee in the NHL. Too early to give up on him, but with getting injured this year, he hasn't shown that he belongs yet. At this point, Reinhart had shown he warranted another look with a very good camp & made good on his opportunity.

#102 nfreeman

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:47 AM

Just keep in mind that Nylander is younger for his draft year than Reinhart, played on an awful Rochester squad, and plays a game that I think will need to be tweaked to get it to work at the NHL level. He thinks he can skate around guys and forgets his teammates. This creates problems because he isn't the best player on the ice. 

 

I just want everyone to remember that Nylander is 19 and will be until March. He is still very young and we should not panic yet that a 19 year old is still trying to figure things out. 

 

Definitely. 

 

The injury is kind of a bummer though, as it really impairs IMHO his chances of sticking with the Sabres to start the season.  He'll need to fully recover, then tear it up in Rochester for a good chunk of the season.



#103 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 08:49 AM

No. The difference is, after a 9 game unimpressive stint in the NHL & dominating in junior, he showed up the next year much more ready for the NHL and scored 23 goals that rookie year.

He only had a cup of coffee in the AHL after Kootenay's season was done.

Nylander seemed a boy among men against AHLers & didn't show anything while having HIS cup of coffee in the NHL. Too early to give up on him, but with getting injured this year, he hasn't shown that he belongs yet. At this point, Reinhart had shown he warranted another look with a very good camp & made good on his opportunity.

That's the thing about people being down on Reinhart, he scored 23 goals as a rookie. 



#104 Mick O’Manly

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:03 AM

Yes, but they were 23 soft goals, 23 slow goals.
And he scored them with a bad attitude.

There were at least 10 NHL players under the age of 24 who scored more points than Sam did at age 21 last year. Bust.

#105 SkuggaLiger

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:12 AM

Yes, but they were 23 soft goals, 23 slow goals.
And he scored them with a bad attitude.

There were at least 10 NHL players under the age of 24 who scored more points than Sam did at age 21 last year. Bust.

lol perfect... 

giphy.gif



#106 Alkoholist

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:27 AM

I dunno, I'm hoping to be able to see it both ways. If Samson stinks up the joint at centre, even with the likes of Pouliot and Bailey as his wings, I'd be comfortable with him moving back to wing and calling it a day. A good centre should be able to elevate those around him at least somewhat. I don't expect him to carry the line, but if we aren't even seeing flashes, he'd probably be best suited to wing.

I'm hoping and thinking he'll do well at C. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

I keep seeing this statement being repeated by multiple people but no one seems to apply it evenly. If a good center should be expected to elevate his line mates then why do most people jump to stack the few good wingers we have on the lines of Eichel and O'Reilly?

 

Reinhart is still learning the center position in the NHL. He shouldn't be expected to just automatically elevate the play of others, especially when nobody even expects it from the other guys.

 

If you want to apply that standard to Reinhart, then why don't we detach Okposo from O'Reilly's hip? O'Reilly is a good center (enough to give him $50 million), plus he's established, so why don't we stick him with crappy wingers and let him elevate their play? Everyone is ready to give Eichel an $80+ million contract but he gets coddled with our remaining best wingers (Kane and Pominville).  

 

You can't have it both ways. You can't expect Reinhart to elevate the play of mediocre wingers while giving the best ones to the established centers who either already make a ton of money (O'Reilly) or will be making huge money soon (Eichel).



#107 We've

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:30 AM

IMO there are only a handful of centers in the league that actually make their wingers better, and they have names like Crosby and McDavid. Hopefully, Jacks name will be added to that list.

There is a snowballs chance in hell that Sam has that kind of effect.

#108 Alkoholist

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:34 AM

IMO there are only a handful of centers in the league that actually make their wingers better, and they have names like Crosby and McDavid. Hopefully, Jacks name will be added to that list.

There is a snowballs chance in hell that Sam has that kind of effect.

 

All the more reason to spread the talent on the wings out a little more and not expect Reinhart to do what neither O'Reilly and Eichel have even proven to be capable of. One of Okposo, Kane, or Pominville should be on his line.



#109 Pokey Jones

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:06 AM

Can I say Nolan or is it too late into camp for that?



#110 Thorny

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:59 AM

I keep seeing this statement being repeated by multiple people but no one seems to apply it evenly. If a good center should be expected to elevate his line mates then why do most people jump to stack the few good wingers we have on the lines of Eichel and O'Reilly?

Reinhart is still learning the center position in the NHL. He shouldn't be expected to just automatically elevate the play of others, especially when nobody even expects it from the other guys.

If you want to apply that standard to Reinhart, then why don't we detach Okposo from O'Reilly's hip? O'Reilly is a good center (enough to give him $50 million), plus he's established, so why don't we stick him with crappy wingers and let him elevate their play? Everyone is ready to give Eichel an $80+ million contract but he gets coddled with our remaining best wingers (Kane and Pominville).

You can't have it both ways. You can't expect Reinhart to elevate the play of mediocre wingers while giving the best ones to the established centers who either already make a ton of money (O'Reilly) or will be making huge money soon (Eichel).

IMO there are only a handful of centers in the league that actually make their wingers better, and they have names like Crosby and McDavid. Hopefully, Jacks name will be added to that list.
There is a snowballs chance in hell that Sam has that kind of effect.


I said "somewhat". I'm not talking Crosby levels, here.

I'd argue that ANY good centre elevates his wings to an extent, in that he's going to be the one setting up his linemates with nice feeds for easy(er) goals, more so than whoever would be there instead. I.e. Talent + Chemistry.

If Pouliot and Bailey produce more with Reinhart at C than Larsson, Reinhart is elevating them. Somewhat.

Relative to who would be there in his place. The equation that's difficult to solve right now, but will be much easier now that Sam is actually getting time at C, is which holds a greater difference: how much Reinhart > Larsson at 3C, compared to how much Reinhart > Pominville at 1 RW. That's the comparison.

My guess is that he's going to make more of a positive impact at 3C even with those wingers. Definitely not opposed to him getting someone else on his wing, but I'm not ruling out there being a large net + with the lines as currently constructed.

Edited by Thorny, 28 September 2017 - 03:04 AM.


#111 Alkoholist

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:02 AM

I said "somewhat". I'm not talking Crosby levels, here.

I'd argue that ANY good centre elevates his wings to an extent, in that he's going to be the one setting up his linemates with nice feeds for easy(er) goals, more so than whoever would be there instead. I.e. Talent + Chemistry.

If Pouliot and Bailey produce more with Reinhart at C than Larsson, Reinhart is elevating them. Somewhat.

Relative to who would be there in his place. The equation that's difficult to solve right now, but will be much easier now that Sam is actually getting time at C, is which holds a greater difference: how much Reinhart > Larsson at 3C, compared to how much Reinhart > Pominville at 1 RW. That's the comparison.

My guess is that he's going to make more of a positive impact at 3C even with those wingers. Definitely not opposed to him getting someone else on his wing, but I'm not ruling out there being a large net + with the lines as currently constructed.

 

Fair enough. I just don't want people to expect Reinhart to be able to do something Eichel and O'Reilly aren't even being asked to do. I'd just like to see our 3 best wingers (Okposo, Kane, and Pominville) each paired up with one of our centers in order to create balanced lines that are all a threat to score. I imagine it will happen, but not until one of the younger guys steps up and either takes Pominville's place on Eichel's RW or Kane's spot on the LW. We'll see if/when it happens.



#112 Thorny

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:36 PM

Fair enough. I just don't want people to expect Reinhart to be able to do something Eichel and O'Reilly aren't even being asked to do. I'd just like to see our 3 best wingers (Okposo, Kane, and Pominville) each paired up with one of our centers in order to create balanced lines that are all a threat to score. I imagine it will happen, but not until one of the younger guys steps up and either takes Pominville's place on Eichel's RW or Kane's spot on the LW. We'll see if/when it happens.


I agree, I'd love to see that. Like many I've wanted to see Kane on Reinhart's LW for a long time.

Edited by Thorny, 28 September 2017 - 12:36 PM.


#113 Pokey Jones

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:23 PM

Does anyone think Pouliot has actually played well enough for a spot on ANY line? Since they acquired him he might get one, but he certainly hasn't earned one. 



#114 Kottbullar

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 12:39 AM

Does anyone think Pouliot has actually played well enough for a spot on ANY line? Since they acquired him he might get one, but he certainly hasn't earned one. 

True, this I agree with... if not... worth a  looksey... Non of the young Sabres are stepping up... And if the Sabres don't take a step forward this year... it will a least be entertaining hockey as they learn the new system and there is a lot of talent coming out next year... so who knows.  One thing is for sure... I think I can finally watch them this year without being bored.