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Training camp questions #6: who is ready to be a regular?


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#41 Randall Flagg

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:29 PM

Could be. I might be overrating Pominville, but he still put up more even strength points than virtually any Sabre last year, no?

You could flip Kyle and Jason, but having Sam and Jason together strikes me as bad mix.

He did. What I've read from Minnesota is that their depth allowed him to be incredibly sheltered, and that his effectiveness drastically reduced in non-ideal situations, which I think he'd be in a lot of if he spent ES time with ROR. 

So I like the often tossed around idea of the sheltered Kane-Reinhart-Pominville, guys I think that can be absolutely devastating when forgotten about over the stresses of defending Jack and ROR lines. 



#42 ericcomposer72

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 10:39 PM

I don't think we put our leading goal scorer on the 3rd line



#43 Thorny

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 11:11 PM

He did. What I've read from Minnesota is that their depth allowed him to be incredibly sheltered, and that his effectiveness drastically reduced in non-ideal situations, which I think he'd be in a lot of if he spent ES time with ROR. 

So I like the often tossed around idea of the sheltered Kane-Reinhart-Pominville, guys I think that can be absolutely devastating when forgotten about over the stresses of defending Jack and ROR lines.


Yup. I'd like to see them try:

Pouliot - O'Reilly - Okposo
Girgensons - Eichel - Baptiste
Kane - Reinhart - Pominville
Josefsson - Larsson - Bailey

Moulson, Deslauriers

(*If you are someone who believes Moulson must be in the line-up, sub him in for Josefsson.)

Scandella - Ristolainen
McCabe - Bogosian
Beaulieu - Antipin

Gorges

---

I think those forward lines provide reasonable balance and allow for two young-uns like Baptiste and Bailey to earn spots and succeed.

#44 bob_sauve28

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 07:30 AM

Yup. I'd like to see them try:

Pouliot - O'Reilly - Okposo
Girgensons - Eichel - Baptiste
Kane - Reinhart - Pominville
Josefsson - Larsson - Bailey

Moulson, Deslauriers

(*If you are someone who believes Moulson must be in the line-up, sub him in for Josefsson.)

Scandella - Ristolainen
McCabe - Bogosian
Beaulieu - Antipin

Gorges

---

I think those forward lines provide reasonable balance and allow for two young-uns like Baptiste and Bailey to earn spots and succeed.

Eichel will be playing with more seasoned talent. 



#45 jsb

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 07:53 AM

I could definitely see Kane - Reinhart - Pominville working splendidly as a third line.

 

Me too, and it is my aspirational 3rd line.

I think if this line becomes a possibility it'll be the 2nd line not the third 

First line                 Pouliot-Eichel-Okposo

Second line            Kane-Samson-Pominville

Third line which would be your defensive line

                              Girgensons-ROR-(Breakthrough Rookie)

Fourth line             Josefson/Moulson-Larsson-Rodrigues

 

                              Josefson/Moulson-Deslauriers



#46 Doohickie

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 08:14 AM

I don't think we put our leading goal scorer on the 3rd line

 

A third line of Kane - Samson - Pommers might be a scoring line in its own right.  If they're slotting against another team's third line, they could conceivably run roughshod over them.

 

Wasn't Vanek's early success on the third line?


Another thought:  If Kane is on the third line, I don't think that necessarily means he's not "good enough" for top six minutes, but rather his skill set is suited to a more two-way role.



#47 dudacek

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 08:28 AM

What does "third line" mean and why can't certain players play on it?

#48 Eleven

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 09:03 AM

Eichel will be playing with more seasoned talent. 

 

Good call.



#49 LTS

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:40 AM

What does "third line" mean and why can't certain players play on it?

 

Well, generally speaking your third line is the line that sees the 3rd most ice time in 5 on 5 situations right?  Ideally you want to maximize the ice time of your top scoring talent.  Therefore, it makes little sense to place a top scoring resource on a line that is on the ice less than two other lines.  If you had equal talent then the lines would rotate evenly and thus there would be no third line except in the order in which they are placed on the ice.

 

Of course, if a player can score at a higher g/60minute rate on the third line than they can the first line then perhaps you put them on that line.  So long as your reduction in talent on your top line does not then produce a greater GA/60M because you've weakened that line.

 

Or some fancy stats crap like that... (I know that's not all that fancy)



#50 dudacek

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:48 AM

Thing is, why the third line is and what it should do in the poster's mind may have no correlation to same in the coach's mind.
The most prominent example recently of course is Phil Kessel in the 2016 playoffs.

#51 ericcomposer72

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:34 PM

I think if this line becomes a possibility it'll be the 2nd line not the third 

First line                 Pouliot-Eichel-Okposo

Second line            Kane-Samson-Pominville

Third line which would be your defensive line

                              Girgensons-ROR-(Breakthrough Rookie)

Fourth line             Josefson/Moulson-Larsson-Rodrigues

 

                              Josefson/Moulson-Deslauriers

 

I like these, but I don't know if ROR would



#52 jsb

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:50 PM

Thing is, why the third line is and what it should do in the poster's mind may have no correlation to same in the coach's mind.
The most prominent example recently of course is Phil Kessel in the 2016 playoffs.

I agree it's almost all on your talent you have on hand but to me you also want some sort of shutdown line in a best case scenario that can still put points on the board. 

My lines were setup with the thought that ROR is our top defensive Center and by far our best faceoff man. If he's also going to get some rest this year and not ground into the ice again, this would be the way of getting him a little less TOI but still have someone who can balance out the scoring on the 3rd line. Girgs playing full time with ROR might just bring out the best in him also. I still have hope for him and he was almost completely wasted by DDB. 

 

Plus if Fasching or Bailey is the 3rd member of that line, that's one fast and powerful line to play against. 

 

I like these, but I don't know if ROR would

I don't think he cares who he plays with, he just wants to win and get his TOI


Edited by jsb, 06 September 2017 - 02:51 PM.


#53 Thorny

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:38 PM

Eichel will be playing with more seasoned talent.


Maybe.

If Reinhart ever does get moved to centre, I can see potential in a line where Eichel has Girgensons and Baptiste as his wingers, provided Baptiste takes a big step this year and can finish at an NHL- level. The speed and skill on that line would be daunting to opposing teams. If Baptiste is ready to be a regular, I can see that line achieving the desired results.

In the "what I actually think will happen" line-up I posted in the line-up thread, I have Eichel with Girgensons and Reinhart. I expect something like that, at least to start.

Eichel is oft paired with Reinhart, and his LW will be one of Kane, Girgensons, or Pouliot. Could be either one of the three, but Flagg has convinced me Girgs should get the first shot.

Edited by Thorny, 06 September 2017 - 03:57 PM.


#54 We've

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 05:48 PM


 

I don't think he cares who he plays with, he just wants to win and get his TOI

 

I'm not so sure about that.  I was under the impression that one of his issues with COL was that he wasn't a featured player.



#55 3putt

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 08:07 PM

I'm ready to be regular.

#56 ericcomposer72

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:09 AM

I don't think he cares who he plays with, he just wants to win and get his TOI

 

Wasn't referring to who he'd be playing with, but being on the 3rd line. I agree with the concept, but the 3rd line doesn't get nearly as much TOI, and that's why I think he wouldn't like it.

 

But then again, if he's on the power play and kills penalties, maybe it'd even out.



#57 Pokey Jones

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 06:58 PM

No, you aren't the only one. I have no excitement for these guys anymore.

 

I like Rodrigues' speed but unless he learns to finish he will never be anything much. There isn't a single one of these guys who showed much last year so unless something radically changes my biggest hope is Antipin. 



#58 Pokey Jones

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:34 PM

Also, what's with the Pouliot love affair? First line, you have to be joking? Utility depth forward nothing more. 



#59 Randall Flagg

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:44 PM

Also, what's with the Pouliot love affair? First line, you have to be joking? Utility depth forward nothing more. 

The real love affair appears to be the "all of your best three players are on your 1st line, followed by the next best 3 on the second, and so on" hierarchy. 

Coaches don't do that and never have. 

Mike Grier played with Drury all of the time. Mike Grier was the definition of depth utility forward. 

 

We will see Bailey, Baptiste, Pouliot, Girgensons, Moulson, all with "top line/top six" time this season.



#60 ShadowLiger

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:56 PM

I like Rodrigues' speed but unless he learns to finish he will never be anything much. There isn't a single one of these guys who showed much last year so unless something radically changes my biggest hope is Antipin.

Something did radically change

#61 Drunkard

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 11:09 AM

The real love affair appears to be the "all of your best three players are on your 1st line, followed by the next best 3 on the second, and so on" hierarchy.

Coaches don't do that and never have.

Mike Grier played with Drury all of the time. Mike Grier was the definition of depth utility forward.

We will see Bailey, Baptiste, Pouliot, Girgensons, Moulson, all with "top line/top six" time this season.


This is a great point. I want to see our talent up and down the lineup. I'd rather not be exclusively top heavy (except maybe on the power play). I don't want half the game to be hinging on protecting half the roster all together at the same time and hoping they can just hold on and not screw up until we can get the top guys back out there.

I think we'll be an actual contender once every line has is a threat to score. That's why I want to see Reinhart centering the 3rd line with someone like Kane on his wing.

#62 Pokey Jones

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 05:47 PM

The main thing is to find someone who can have real chemistry with Jack. So far we haven't seen that. Whoever plays best with Jack plays with Jack and then you make the rest of it up according to what's left. O'Reilly should be shutting down other team's top forwards as his primary role and not depended on for primary scoring. 

 

The philosophy isn't exactly all your best on line one, it's your top line being a scoring threat, your second line being more of a 2-way line that can be matched against their top line but still give you offense, the 4th line is a checking line maybe an energy combo, and philosophies differ on line 3 which is dependent on your roster as to it's character. 

 

Last year none of our lines had any real character or identity and nobody really clicked with Jack outside of the PP.



#63 Doohickie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:33 PM

I'm ready to be regular.

 

Book-Carbohydrate-Fiber-Foods.jpg



#64 jeffismagic

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:07 PM

What does "third line" mean and why can't certain players play on it?


I am ready to retire that concept. Teams and their fans should focus on an effective top 9.

#65 Randall Flagg

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:17 PM

The main thing is to find someone who can have real chemistry with Jack. So far we haven't seen that. Whoever plays best with Jack plays with Jack and then you make the rest of it up according to what's left. O'Reilly should be shutting down other team's top forwards as his primary role and not depended on for primary scoring. 

 

The philosophy isn't exactly all your best on line one, it's your top line being a scoring threat, your second line being more of a 2-way line that can be matched against their top line but still give you offense, the 4th line is a checking line maybe an energy combo, and philosophies differ on line 3 which is dependent on your roster as to it's character. 

 

Last year none of our lines had any real character or identity and nobody really clicked with Jack outside of the PP.

I don't think I've seen Jack have real chemistry with a hockey player since I watched him play with Rodrigues at BU (not in the NHL). Not at WHC, not at the World Cup, not as a Sabre. Sam was close for a few stretches but that feeling faded last season.

 

I really think he has looked good with ROR in limited time, and I gave Dan a hard time for not doing more of it, but who wants to move one or the other off of center and weaken whichever line you take them off of? Not a lot of NHL coaches do, that's for sure.

 

I think that's more evidence to just stick Jack with guys who play simple, fast games that open up space for Jack to do Jack's things.  



#66 Thorny

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:43 PM

^ Until someone like Nylander or Mittelstadt is ready, I'd say. I'd pair him with one of them, and then a guy with that simple fast game on the other side.

#67 Pokey Jones

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:55 PM

Well it was obvious Murray's dream was for Kane to pair with Jack as a dynamic duo but that was a bust and thought 2 was Nylander I am sure but so far Nylander looks to be less than his brother but it is too early to write him off, could still happen. Maybe new management was thinking along similar lines with Mittelstadt. Going to wait until I see him play before assessing him. A guy who clicks with Jack though is the key and this is why I'd be willing to trade any number of guys who haven't to find that guy(s). 



#68 GASabresFan

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:05 PM

Im going to disagree on Jack, Kane and chemistry. Watch Kane's goals last year and watch which player set him up the most. It was Jack. I think there is some good chemistry there and if left alone for a season, there could be a real payoff on the ice for both players,

As to who could a regular this season, we need two of Baptiste, Bailey and Fasching to step up and take an NHL job.

#69 Crusader1969

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:06 PM

Im going to disagree on Jack, Kane and chemistry. Watch Kane's goals last year and watch which player set him up the most. It was Jack. I think there is some good chemistry there and if left alone for a season, there could be a real payoff on the ice for both players,

As to who could a regular this season, we need two of Baptiste, Bailey and Fasching to step up and take an NHL job.

 

 

I agree about 2 of the 3 being ready but I don't want them on the 4th line (maybe Fasching) but who's job are they taking?  Okposo Pommer and Samson rank ahead, or have we definitely moved him to C?  


I think if this line becomes a possibility it'll be the 2nd line not the third 

First line                 Pouliot-Eichel-Okposo

Second line            Kane-Samson-Pominville

Third line which would be your defensive line

                              Girgensons-ROR-(Breakthrough Rookie)

Fourth line             Josefson/Moulson-Larsson-Rodrigues

 

                              Josefson/Moulson-Deslauriers

 

ROR and Okposo should be kept together. Maybe Girgs on LW?  

Kane Eichel and Baptiste

Samson with Bailey and Pouliot 

4th line of Moulson Larsson Pommer

 

Dont really see Playoffs for the above forward group but team will look a lot better in 2018/19 when you put Nylander and Mittelstadt in the line-up. maybe Clifford Pu too???


Edited by Crusader1969, 14 September 2017 - 04:08 PM.