Jump to content


Photo

Jbot so far?


  • Please log in to reply
106 replies to this topic

Poll: Thumbs Up or Down

Are you happy with the job Jbot's done so far

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.

Are you more or less optimistic about next season?

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.

What should be the official Sabrespace designation for GM Jason Botterill?

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
Vote Guests cannot vote

#81 jeffismagic

jeffismagic

    Top Prospect

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 387 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Downtown Buffalo, NY

Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:23 PM

Murray didn't do a lousy job drafting in later rounds?

Give me the names of the players drafted by him after round 1 that have put up numbers and are considered solid NHL starters? I count..............none.


It's early but the last two Murray drafts look very solid. Pu, Asplund, Guhle, Borgen, Fitzgerald all are nice prospects

#82 inkman

inkman

    Fledgling Member of TSC

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fairport

Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:29 PM

Murray didn't do a lousy job drafting in later rounds?

Give me the names of the players drafted by him after round 1 that have put up numbers and are considered solid NHL starters? I count..............none.

Umm... What?

http://images.tsn.ca...raft1_53958.jpg

#83 Pokey Jones

Pokey Jones

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 483 posts

Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:38 AM

I can't accept this idea that "oh well, nobody in the later rounds is likely to make it" . Success in later rounds is what separates good teams from bad. Why were the Oilers so bad despite first overall picks for years before they lucked into McDavid? By picking rubbish in all the later rounds. Why did Detroit have such a long run of playoff teams? Cause they found Zetterberg in the 7th and Datsyuk in the 6th. Murray couldn't even find us a new Paul Gaustad (7th rounder) and even the 2nd rounders who were high picks haven't amounted to much yet alone the 3rd or 4th.  While you obviously won't find a Hornqvist in the 7th round every year to help you win a cup finding even a few diamonds in the rough now and again will make all the difference in the world to a team's development. Murray just gave away our wealth of picks in poor trades and drafted poorly with the picks he kept.  The O'Reilly deal is the only thing I can think of that Murray did right. I was so happy when they finally axed him.  



#84 ubkev

ubkev

    First Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,023 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsyltucky via Upstate NY

Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:20 AM

Datsuyk played in Russia for 2 years after being drafted. Zeterberg played in Sweden for 2 years after being drafted.

Tim had 3 drafts with the sabres, right? So the players from the Reinhart draft should be breaking through according to the Detroit model. Ok, so we didn't get datsuyk or zeterberg that year.

That draft has produced 2 all stars so far. 0 from outside the first round.

#85 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 12 August 2017 - 07:54 AM

I can't accept this idea that "oh well, nobody in the later rounds is likely to make it" . Success in later rounds is what separates good teams from bad. Why were the Oilers so bad despite first overall picks for years before they lucked into McDavid? By picking rubbish in all the later rounds. Why did Detroit have such a long run of playoff teams? Cause they found Zetterberg in the 7th and Datsyuk in the 6th. Murray couldn't even find us a new Paul Gaustad (7th rounder) and even the 2nd rounders who were high picks haven't amounted to much yet alone the 3rd or 4th. While you obviously won't find a Hornqvist in the 7th round every year to help you win a cup finding even a few diamonds in the rough now and again will make all the difference in the world to a team's development. Murray just gave away our wealth of picks in poor trades and drafted poorly with the picks he kept. The O'Reilly deal is the only thing I can think of that Murray did right. I was so happy when they finally axed him.

I wouldn't expect a 2nd round or later player to be nhl ready for at least 3-5 years... So how can you be pissed set a gm who was barely here 3 years, only had his staff in place for 2, for not hitting on late round picks when we won't know about those picks for another 1-3 years?

Datsuyk played in Russia for 2 years after being drafted. Zeterberg played in Sweden for 2 years after being drafted.

Tim had 3 drafts with the sabres, right? So the players from the Reinhart draft should be breaking through according to the Detroit model. Ok, so we didn't get datsuyk or zeterberg that year.

That draft has produced 2 all stars so far. 0 from outside the first round.

The 2014 draft wasn't great for anyone really. 2015 though I expect a few later guys out of that.

#86 DirtDart

DirtDart

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:42 AM

surprised so many of us seeing the sabres contend for a playoff spot. Anyone planning a parade yet ? :P

I think we contend for a playoff spot, but just miss making it. We are still a stud left wing away from the playoffs. Assuming our D improves, and the young kids make a step upward it will be an entertaining year.

#87 Pokey Jones

Pokey Jones

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 483 posts

Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:22 PM

It is true that there could be a surprise and some of the young guys could still develop. 3-5 years is not wrong BUT what I base my comment on is not seeing much upside in those guys at this point. Usually you see a guy who has moments of brilliance or he has this strength and that weakness but you see this moment or two when he's up that gives you hope. I didn't see many of those. Most of those guys showed a lot less than I'd have expected at this stage. Rodriguez has the wheels so I have hope for him, but overall I see mediocre at best with most of them. I am, as I said, a pessimist on the current roster. I don't think it was all Bylsma's fault. I think he was forced to play that way cause so few of our guys can actually put the puck in the net. 

If I saw more guys that had a weakness but ALSO a strength I might not be so hard on my evaluation of Murray. 



#88 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:25 PM

It is true that there could be a surprise and some of the young guys could still develop. 3-5 years is not wrong BUT what I base my comment on is not seeing much upside in those guys at this point. Usually you see a guy who has moments of brilliance or he has this strength and that weakness but you see this moment or two when he's up that gives you hope. I didn't see many of those. Most of those guys showed a lot less than I'd have expected at this stage. Rodriguez has the wheels so I have hope for him, but overall I see mediocre at best with most of them. I am, as I said, a pessimist on the current roster. I don't think it was all Bylsma's fault. I think he was forced to play that way cause so few of our guys can actually put the puck in the net.
If I saw more guys that had a weakness but ALSO a strength I might not be so hard on my evaluation of Murray.

Please name the guys you are evaluating.

#89 pi2000

pi2000

    A. Matthews fan club

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,891 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Left Coast

Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:00 AM

It is true that there could be a surprise and some of the young guys could still develop. 3-5 years is not wrong BUT what I base my comment on is not seeing much upside in those guys at this point. Usually you see a guy who has moments of brilliance or he has this strength and that weakness but you see this moment or two when he's up that gives you hope. I didn't see many of those. Most of those guys showed a lot less than I'd have expected at this stage. Rodriguez has the wheels so I have hope for him, but overall I see mediocre at best with most of them. I am, as I said, a pessimist on the current roster. I don't think it was all Bylsma's fault. I think he was forced to play that way cause so few of our guys can actually put the puck in the net.
If I saw more guys that had a weakness but ALSO a strength I might not be so hard on my evaluation of Murray.


I'm pretty close to feeling this way too. Who was the last Sabres player to came out of nowhere and contribute significantly to this team? I understand this crop is still relatively young but they should've shown regular flashes by now or at least put up numbers in Rochester.

#90 Pokey Jones

Pokey Jones

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 483 posts

Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:19 AM

Which ones am I thinking of? Pretty much every call up over the past 2 seasons. 

 

Fasching, Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, and so on. All of them in the 20-25 age group or thereabouts.  



#91 Wyldnwoody44

Wyldnwoody44

    "Have no fear of perfection, You'll never reach it"

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,817 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Springville, NY

Posted 13 August 2017 - 05:35 AM

I may be in The Uber-minority but I think Rodrigues has a lot more potential /ability than he's getting credit for, I'd like to see him with Jack for a bit..... This is only based on my eye test

#92 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:20 AM

Which ones am I thinking of? Pretty much every call up over the past 2 seasons.

Fasching, Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, and so on. All of them in the 20-25 age group or thereabouts.

First bylsma is an absolute garbage coach.

Second really? I saw flashes from Bailey, Baptiste in their call ups. Fasching was injured so idk what to say there. I like Rodriguez.

I don't agree and I'm too lazy to actually reply.

I may be in The Uber-minority but I think Rodrigues has a lot more potential /ability than he's getting credit for, I'd like to see him with Jack for a bit..... This is only based on my eye test

He's someone I'm interested in seeing more of.

#93 7+6=13

7+6=13

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, NC

Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:56 PM

Which ones am I thinking of? Pretty much every call up over the past 2 seasons. 

 

Fasching, Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, and so on. All of them in the 20-25 age group or thereabouts.  

 

We all understand what you're saying but I personally just think you're a year or two early on being outraged that there is nothing.  Pros weren't producing last year - I just don't see how a young player could - I think that's why most of the "hockey" guys/gals on this site put that on Bylsma.  Second the Rochester situation was a total mess and that has been put on Murray appropriately.  How anyone can think a player coming out of a failing program like Rochester to a failing offense in Buffalo and shine is somewhat unrealistic - unless he's some phenom.  JBot has clearly made a huge effort to change Rochester. 

 

In saying that, I'd reserve judgment on Murray's drafting by itself and subsequently the players themselves. 



#94 We've

We've

    Self-appointed Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,383 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in your head

Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:14 PM

What did Murray have?  3 drafts?  If you get two post 2nd round kids that make the NHL for a cup of coffee out of three drafts you did well.  If one sticks for a decent career?  Real well.

 

The odds just don't favor guys in mid to late rounds ever doing anything.



#95 7+6=13

7+6=13

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, NC

Posted 13 August 2017 - 06:56 PM

What did Murray have?  3 drafts?  If you get two post 2nd round kids that make the NHL for a cup of coffee out of three drafts you did well.  If one sticks for a decent career?  Real well.

 

The odds just don't favor guys in mid to late rounds ever doing anything.

 

That's right.  He'll be judged on how Cornel, Karabacek, Fasching, Guhle, Asplund and Nylander turn out - in terms of drafting.  I know Fasching was a trade but it was still a prospect trade.

 

Murray made a ton of moves and to track them all would be a lengthy process.  I think ultimately he did a good job that still has the chance of being a great job. 



#96 jeffismagic

jeffismagic

    Top Prospect

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 387 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Downtown Buffalo, NY

Posted 13 August 2017 - 07:10 PM

I think Murray's 2014 draft looks poor and his 2015 and 2016 look much better. He didn't have his people in place in 2014 though.



#97 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 14 August 2017 - 08:08 AM

The 2014 draft wasn't great outside of round 1. No one is really flaunting their awesome 2014 draft because they didn't have one. Dvorak is probably the best player taken after the 1st. It was just a crappy draft IMPO.

 

Now the 2015 draft... that had some depth. 2016 was a middling draft, there will be some later round guys. 2017 had a lot of depth into round 2. Should be interesting to see who pans out, I still think not taking a certain defender in the 3rd was a mistake but whatever. 

 

Again, outside of Guhle, there really aren't any players Murray drafted that I would expect to be anything yet. 



#98 shrader

shrader

    Enduring tortures most of which rhyme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,132 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:05 AM

Which ones am I thinking of? Pretty much every call up over the past 2 seasons. 

 

Fasching, Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, and so on. All of them in the 20-25 age group or thereabouts.  

 

It's kind of interesting how every single guy you've just listed was draft eligible before Murray was the GM.  So you're assessing guys who are older than anyone Murray drafted while here.  It's tough to use that as an indictment against his non-1st round draft picks.



#99 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 14 August 2017 - 10:11 AM

Because now I am not lazy:

 

Every Tim Murray drafted player by draft:

2014

Sam Reinhart - 1st, 2nd overall

Brendan Lemiuex - 2nd, 31st overall

Eric Cornel - 2nd, 44th overall

Vaclav Karabacek, 2nd, 49th overall

Jonas Johansson - 3rd, 61st overall

Brycen Martin - 3rd, 74th overall

Maxwell Willman - 5th, 121st overall

Chris Brown - 6th, 151st overall

Victor Olofsson - 7th, 181st overall

 

2015

Jack Eichel - 1st, 2nd overall

Brock Boeser - 21st overall

Brendan Guhle - 2nd 51st overall

Will Borgen - 4th, 92nd overall

Devante Stephens - 5th, 122nd overall

Giorgio Estephan - 6th, 152nd overall

Ivan Chukarov - 7th, 182 overall

 

2016

Alex Nylander - 1st, 8th overall

Rasmus Asplund - 2nd, 33rd overall

Cliff Pu - 3rd, 69th overall

Casey Ftizgerald - 3rd, 86th overall

Brett Murray - 4th, 99th overall

Philip Nyberg - 5th, 129th overall

Vojtech Budik - 5th, 130th overall

Brandon Hagel - 6th, 159th overall

Austin Osmanski - 7th, 189th overall

Vasily Glotov - 7th, 190th overall

 

Those are all the picks made while Tim Murray was GM. Since we are not counting first rounders... I have heard good things about Cornel and Olofsson. They both have a shot of making the NHL from my understanding, whether they do or not is up for debate. Johansson is a goalie so who knows what happens with him. Either way 2 possible later round guys from 2014 that could play in the NHL. In 2015 we took Guhle who could make the Sabres this year but at the very least looks to be on his way to a role as an NHL defender. The rest of them idk but still 1 guy with those last 5 picks is basically conforming to the math. Finally 2016, this is a hard year to say anything about because it is only 1 year out. Cliff Pu looks good and could continue his growth. Asplund looks good and should continue growing. Fitgerald is liked by some and Nyberg is in the NCAA now so those guys are interesting to watch. Vasily Glotov is best known for his media interviews but he has mad shooting skills. Realistically out of the 5 guys I named, 2 might make the NHL.

 

My conclusion is that right now it appears Murray drafted at or a hair above average for later rounds (2-7). Clearly 2014 was not a draft he was all set for. In 2015 I think he had far fewer picks than we would have thought. 2016 with a bunch of picks he edges a hair over the line (the line for me is 1.5 guys outside the 1st round making it).  In 3 drafts then I would expect Murray to have 7-8 players make the NHL including the first round guys. I would expect that roughly 4-5 players from rounds 2-7 make the NHL. This of course relies on you having 18 picks +/- 2 in those later rounds combined. Right now with my math, I have 3-5 players that could be NHL guys. Guhle, Asplund seem likely with Pu, Olofsson, and a rando maybe making it. It is therefore to early to tell if Murray failed in those later rounds. If we get less than 4 NHL guys from it then he did. Keep in mind that Lemiuex counts towards that total as well. Bottom line, we are another 2-4 years away from knowing. 



#100 shrader

shrader

    Enduring tortures most of which rhyme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,132 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 August 2017 - 11:35 AM

Bottom line, we are another 2-4 years away from knowing. 

 

That's the whole analysis right there.  Whether the review is optimistic or pessimistic, it still comes right back to this single sentence.



#101 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 14 August 2017 - 11:47 AM

That's the whole analysis right there.  Whether the review is optimistic or pessimistic, it still comes right back to this single sentence.

Agreed. 


If we apply the same thing to Jbot his first draft looks mediocre. Mittlestadt looks awesome but then there is some ???? after that



#102 Pokey Jones

Pokey Jones

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 483 posts

Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:16 PM

Ok fair enough. I'm not as meticulous or detailed on these things as some of you so it's not all on Murray. I just think he did a piss poor job but it doesn't matter he's gone.  I guess I just center my thought on the team when he arrived was called a bad team with huge potential and a stocked draft cupboard. 3 Years later a bad team and the cupboard is called bare by NHL insiders and experts. Go figure. 

 

I hope Housley can make Guhle great. 



#103 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:01 AM

Ok fair enough. I'm not as meticulous or detailed on these things as some of you so it's not all on Murray. I just think he did a piss poor job but it doesn't matter he's gone.  I guess I just center my thought on the team when he arrived was called a bad team with huge potential and a stocked draft cupboard. 3 Years later a bad team and the cupboard is called bare by NHL insiders and experts. Go figure. 

 

I hope Housley can make Guhle great. 

If they are calling the cupboard bare they aren't paying attention. One of the reasons the Sabres prospect pool looks more bare than some other teams is simple, Eichel, Reinhart, Risto are all guys who could still be prospects and aren't. They are NHL regulars. The disadvantage the Sabres are overcoming right now is prospect depth. Part of that is Murray's fault. There is a reason I added Brock Boeser to that list even though we never drafted him. Murray traded a ton of picks away in the deepest draft in a decade. I hated that move then and I like it less now. Murray I care less for as time passes. I hate Bylsma's coaching so that plays a part. 

 

This team still has huge potential. Jack Eichel is almost and unknown at this point. 60 games coming off a bad hockey injury in his sophomore season playing a system he hated and kid still put up numbers. Nylander stuggled in the AHL but then most 18yr olds struggle playing men. He looks jacked. Mittelstadt isn't human and although he is stocky, after a year of a college level weight training program some of that chunk is going to be muscle and that will just make him even deadlier on the rush. Other guys we will have to see but the good news is that we are pulling out of the tank and more into the building part of this entire process. I'd say we are 2-3 years away from making a ton of noise. 


Edited by ShadowLiger, 15 August 2017 - 08:02 AM.


#104 Thorny

Thorny

    Supreme Mugwump

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,403 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo, some day

Posted 15 August 2017 - 04:32 PM

Ok fair enough. I'm not as meticulous or detailed on these things as some of you so it's not all on Murray. I just think he did a piss poor job but it doesn't matter he's gone.  I guess I just center my thought on the team when he arrived was called a bad team with huge potential and a stocked draft cupboard. 3 Years later a bad team and the cupboard is called bare by NHL insiders and experts. Go figure. 
 
I hope Housley can make Guhle great.


I don't think our cupboard is being called bare. Plenty of nice prospects within. Not to mention, when including all 22 and unders, we add Eichel, Reinhart, and Ristolainen to the list. Also, we weren't seen as a team with huge potential until AFTER Murray had taken over, and after he had drafted those 2 2nd overall centres.

#105 7+6=13

7+6=13

    Top Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 436 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, NC

Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:07 AM

If they are calling the cupboard bare they aren't paying attention. One of the reasons the Sabres prospect pool looks more bare than some other teams is simple, Eichel, Reinhart, Risto are all guys who could still be prospects and aren't. They are NHL regulars. The disadvantage the Sabres are overcoming right now is prospect depth. Part of that is Murray's fault. There is a reason I added Brock Boeser to that list even though we never drafted him. Murray traded a ton of picks away in the deepest draft in a decade. I hated that move then and I like it less now. Murray I care less for as time passes. I hate Bylsma's coaching so that plays a part. 

 

This team still has huge potential. Jack Eichel is almost and unknown at this point. 60 games coming off a bad hockey injury in his sophomore season playing a system he hated and kid still put up numbers. Nylander stuggled in the AHL but then most 18yr olds struggle playing men. He looks jacked. Mittelstadt isn't human and although he is stocky, after a year of a college level weight training program some of that chunk is going to be muscle and that will just make him even deadlier on the rush. Other guys we will have to see but the good news is that we are pulling out of the tank and more into the building part of this entire process. I'd say we are 2-3 years away from making a ton of noise. 

 

That's a pretty excellent take right there.



#106 We've

We've

    Self-appointed Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,383 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in your head

Posted 31 August 2017 - 08:30 AM

Kevin Devine demoted all the way from Director of Player Personnel to Amateur Scout.  I am somewhat amazed that he's managed to survive two GM changes.



#107 ShadowLiger

ShadowLiger

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,949 posts

Posted 31 August 2017 - 09:28 AM

Kevin Devine demoted all the way from Director of Player Personnel to Amateur Scout.  I am somewhat amazed that he's managed to survive two GM changes.

I'm surprised he didn't quit. I will always respect Devine for getting Risto. That said I think the new direction of the scouting staff can be a good thing.