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#41 Sabre fan

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Posted 26 May 2017 - 11:50 AM

remember exGMTM was the one that laid the groundwork to sign Antinpin...he also stole OReilly and got us Kane for whatever (jury is still out but Myers who is still trying to find himself, Stafford is well Stafford, and the young guys are nothing to get too excited about), Lerner who I along with many others think is a NHL goalie (still young too) and I have no doubt he would have actively pursued another defenceman so while I think our new GM may get a lot of the credit, I do think that exGMTM did more then he is given credit for. If Kulikov had not got hurt in that freak accident and had played even close to his potential I think our D would have been that much better last year. Injuries did play a big part along with the coach's horrible system (which I guess we can blame exGMTM and say he should have done something about that far earlier which I suppose may be true)...


Edited by Sabre fan, 26 May 2017 - 11:51 AM.


#42 GASabresFan

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 06:37 PM

Is not signing 2 prospects doing something?

So what is the Jbot score board to date?
1) signed Antipin
2) signed Johansson
3) Fired Lambert and staff
4) new ECHL team
5) Hired Sexton? Has this actually happened?
6) Interviewed Boughner for HC job.
7) Signed Danforth for Rochester

Edited by GASabresFan, 02 June 2017 - 06:42 PM.


#43 7+6=13

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 08:31 PM

remember exGMTM was the one that laid the groundwork to sign Antinpin...he also stole OReilly and got us Kane for whatever (jury is still out but Myers who is still trying to find himself, Stafford is well Stafford, and the young guys are nothing to get too excited about), Lerner who I along with many others think is a NHL goalie (still young too) and I have no doubt he would have actively pursued another defenceman so while I think our new GM may get a lot of the credit, I do think that exGMTM did more then he is given credit for. If Kulikov had not got hurt in that freak accident and had played even close to his potential I think our D would have been that much better last year. Injuries did play a big part along with the coach's horrible system (which I guess we can blame exGMTM and say he should have done something about that far earlier which I suppose may be true)...

 

I liked Murray and he deserves a lot of credit for building a team with very little talent into a solid roster to build on.  However I disagree about him doing something earlier about the system as I don't think GM's should get involved in that during the season, that's should be left to the coach.  He had an opportunity after the season to convince the owners how he'd address the system and the answer appears to have been not good enough.  It is time to move on though and I think we got a good one in Bots. 


Edited by 7+6=13, 02 June 2017 - 08:32 PM.


#44 MattPie

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 01:02 PM

Is not signing 2 prospects doing something?

So what is the Jbot score board to date?
1) signed Antipin
2) signed Johansson
3) Fired Lambert and staff
4) new ECHL team
5) Hired Sexton? Has this actually happened?
6) Interviewed Boughner for HC job.
7) Signed Danforth for Rochester

 

#6: from the sounds of it he's interviewed a number of people, Boughner is getting press as he hasn't been discussed much around here before and is a former Sabre.



#45 ShadowLiger

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 03:32 PM

because it needs to be said, who cares if any coach is a former Sabre? It means zero, zilch, nada, nothing. 



#46 GASabresFan

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 04:16 PM

because it needs to be said, who cares if any coach is a former Sabre? It means zero, zilch, nada, nothing.

It might mean something to that former player. Could be a positive or negative depending on their time here.

Edited by GASabresFan, 05 June 2017 - 04:18 PM.


#47 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 12:19 AM

Now that the playoffs are complete, Jbot can you do something important already?

Such as...
Hire a coach
Buy out Gorges
Trade Kane
Trade Lehner
Make a deal with Vegas.

Do something already!

#48 ShadowLiger

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 07:43 AM

Now that the playoffs are complete, Jbot can you do something important already?

Such as...
Hire a coach
Buy out Gorges
Trade Kane
Trade Lehner
Make a deal with Vegas.

Do something already!

buying out Gorges is still stupid. 



#49 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:06 AM

buying out Gorges is still stupid.


Agreed. Put him in the AHL, trade with 50% retained, whatever, just don't want to see cap hit after this season.

#50 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 09:27 AM

Here is the deal with Gorges.  We all agree that he is at best an overpaid marginal NHL player at this point in his career.  So what are our options

1) Keep him on the roster for one more year, pay him his 3.9 and then let him walk next summer.  Not a completely terrible option as long as he is not in the top 6, we don't need some extra cap space or the contract space or the roster spot.

2) Send him down to the minors.  This would save us 950K in cap, but we'd still be on the hook for the contract and $3.9 mill in actual salary.  Could this actually help the Amerks?  Did Rivet?  This has the added feature of someone claiming him if we try to recall him and opening a roster spot in Buffalo.

3) Buy him out.  Cost. 1.3 for the next two seasons.  Cap saving this next season 2.6 mill.  Cap cost the year after 1.3  Obviously the cap cost the second year could be an issue, but I doubt it. Also it removes the contract from our total, opens a roster spot for hopefully a cheap and better player and saves the organization $1.3 mill in actual $.  The real advantage here is the opening of the roster spot and the actual money saved.  In theory, this would give Jbot 2.6 mill to spend on a free agent upgrade.  Considering that guys like Quincy and Seidenberg can be had for 1.5 this makes a great deal of sense.  

4) Pray LV takes Gorges in the expansion draft.  What kind of incentive would we have to do to get this done?  A 2nd rd pick?  A prospect?  I'm not willing to waste an asset to get that done and I hope Jbot isn't either.

5) Trade him and retain some salary.

 

Obviously, the best thing that can happen is LV takes Gorges without an incentive from us.  However, I doubt that is going to happen.  No. 5 would be a miracle.  It would save the roster spot, cap and real $, therefore it's highly unlikely. My least favorite option is No.1.  Keeping him in Buffalo is a huge mistake IMHO.  I don't mind No. 2 other then I think it's a waste to pay someone $3.9 mill to play in the minors.  That leaves buying him out.  Y'all may not like this option because you mistakenly feel the $1.3 mill in cap for year 2 will be a problem.  Remember that's less then 2% of the cap.  



#51 Derrico

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 09:36 AM

I like every option except #3.

 

I don't love having him on the team but it's one more season and then the cap hit is gone.  I don't care about the actual salary, I care about the cap hit and don't want it carrying over to next season (when Eichel's big deal and likely Reino's medium size deal kicks in).  In the interim, if he's playing where he should be, on the third pair, I am fine for one more season.  At worst, it gives Guhle time to develop in Rochester if needed.



#52 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 10:23 AM

I like every option except #3.

 

I don't love having him on the team but it's one more season and then the cap hit is gone.  I don't care about the actual salary, I care about the cap hit and don't want it carrying over to next season (when Eichel's big deal and likely Reino's medium size deal kicks in).  In the interim, if he's playing where he should be, on the third pair, I am fine for one more season.  At worst, it gives Guhle time to develop in Rochester if needed.

 

I concurr. In a couple years, that 1.3M dead cap space is the difference between paying a UFA league minimum vs. $2M+. Looking at the UFA list, $2M buys you a player I've actually heard of (or Brian Elliot/Chad Johnson level backup GT), where the league minimum guys are nobodies.



#53 ShadowLiger

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 10:49 AM

Our total number of contracts is not an issue. Gorges on the team this season is not an issue. We need him gone starting next year with all his cap. Maybe a new coach will get a bit more from him too. Don't compound a mistake by dragging it out another year. If he's that awful bury him in Rochester.

Edited by ShadowLiger, 13 June 2017 - 10:55 AM.


#54 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 03:27 PM

Here is the deal with Gorges. We all agree that he is at best an overpaid marginal NHL player at this point in his career. So what are our options
1) Keep him on the roster for one more year, pay him his 3.9 and then let him walk next summer. Not a completely terrible option as long as he is not in the top 6, we don't need some extra cap space or the contract space or the roster spot.
2) Send him down to the minors. This would save us 950K in cap, but we'd still be on the hook for the contract and $3.9 mill in actual salary. Could this actually help the Amerks? Did Rivet? This has the added feature of someone claiming him if we try to recall him and opening a roster spot in Buffalo.
3) Buy him out. Cost. 1.3 for the next two seasons. Cap saving this next season 2.6 mill. Cap cost the year after 1.3 Obviously the cap cost the second year could be an issue, but I doubt it. Also it removes the contract from our total, opens a roster spot for hopefully a cheap and better player and saves the organization $1.3 mill in actual $. The real advantage here is the opening of the roster spot and the actual money saved. In theory, this would give Jbot 2.6 mill to spend on a free agent upgrade. Considering that guys like Quincy and Seidenberg can be had for 1.5 this makes a great deal of sense.
4) Pray LV takes Gorges in the expansion draft. What kind of incentive would we have to do to get this done? A 2nd rd pick? A prospect? I'm not willing to waste an asset to get that done and I hope Jbot isn't either.
5) Trade him and retain some salary.

Obviously, the best thing that can happen is LV takes Gorges without an incentive from us. However, I doubt that is going to happen. No. 5 would be a miracle. It would save the roster spot, cap and real $, therefore it's highly unlikely. My least favorite option is No.1. Keeping him in Buffalo is a huge mistake IMHO. I don't mind No. 2 other then I think it's a waste to pay someone $3.9 mill to play in the minors. That leaves buying him out. Y'all may not like this option because you mistakenly feel the $1.3 mill in cap for year 2 will be a problem. Remember that's less then 2% of the cap.


Why are you unconcerned about $1.3M next season, but very concerned about $1.7M (the difference in cap between buying him out and burying him in Rochester)? Do you really think our cap situation is so bad that we can't afford a bottom of the barrel defenseman? Keep in mind, all of Eichel, Reinhart, and Kane, will be seeing raises if they're still here. Seems to me I'd much rather have extra cap space when that happens.

#55 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 03:48 PM

If I'm running a business I look to save real $ in addition to cap $.  While sending Gorges down saves $950k in cap, it still costs $3.9 mill in actual $ plus the cost (cap and real $) of his replacement.

 

So lets use an example for next season (2017-18)

 

Scenario 1; Sending Gorges down and replace with Kyle Quincey for $1.5.  

 

Cap cost: Gorges 2.85 + Quincey 1.5 = 4.35.  Real $; Gorges 3.9 + Quincey 1.5 = 5.4

 

Scenario 2: Buyout Gorges and replace with Quincey for $1.5

 

Cap cost: Gorges 1.3 + Quincey 1.5 = 2.8   Real $; Gorges 1.3 + Quincey 1.5 = 2.8

 

It's not even a contest both $ and cap wise.  The buyout is simply better.  



#56 qwksndmonster

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 03:52 PM

Who cares about real dollars?

#57 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 03:57 PM

If I'm running a business I look to save real $ in addition to cap $. While sending Gorges down saves $950k in cap, it still costs $3.9 mill in actual $ plus the cost (cap and real $) of his replacement.

So lets use an example for next season (2017-18)

Scenario 1; Sending Gorges down and replace with Kyle Quincey for $1.5.

Cap cost: Gorges 2.85 + Quincey 1.5 = 4.35. Real $; Gorges 3.9 + Quincey 1.5 = 5.4

Scenario 2: Buyout Gorges and replace with Quincey for $1.5

Cap cost: Gorges 1.3 + Quincey 1.5 = 2.8 Real $; Gorges 1.3 + Quincey 1.5 = 2.8

It's not even a contest both $ and cap wise. The buyout is simply better.


If Pegula doesn't care about the real dollars, I don't see why you would. Secondly, your scenario is dependent upon the assumption we cannot sign Kyle Quincey for $1.5M unless we buy out Gorges. That need not be the case.

#58 Thorny

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:01 PM

The only thing I need to see before the end of Friday is an expansion-related deal for a Defenceman. All we've heard about constantly is how the market is going to be wide open for deals, this may be Botterill's best chance to add a guy to our D corps this offseason.

#59 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:04 PM

If Pegula doesn't care about the real dollars, I don't see why you would. Secondly, your scenario is dependent upon the assumption we cannot sign Kyle Quincey for $1.5M unless we buy out Gorges. That need not be the case.

 

Pegula cares about getting a good return on his investment.  Just because TM spent money like a drunken sailor doesn't mean Jbot will or should.  Kyle Quincey is an example, but signing a few vets on D is less likely with Gorges and his cap hit still in Buffalo.



#60 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:07 PM

Pegula cares about getting a good return on his investment.  Just because TM spent money like a drunken sailor doesn't mean Jbot will or should.  Kyle Quincey is an example, but signing a few vets on D is less likely with Gorges and his cap hit still in Buffalo.

 

Pegula has shown little evidence of that. Maybe someday he'll tighten the purse strings, but so far he hasn't.

 

And, signing vets in 2018 and 2019 will be a little harder with 1.3M in dead space.



#61 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:19 PM

Pegula has shown little evidence of that. Maybe someday he'll tighten the purse strings, but so far he hasn't.

 

 

How do you know that wasn't a factor in the firing of TM?

 

1.3 in dead cap space is 1.7% of the cap.  We also have a rebate of 458k from Hodgson in 2018-19, which mean dead space of only 850K or 1.1% assuming we buy out Gorges.  This amount of money is meaningless and won't be an in issue in re-signing Sam or Jack or anyone else. 

 


Edited by GASabresFan, 13 June 2017 - 04:22 PM.


#62 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 04:33 PM

Pegula cares about getting a good return on his investment. Just because TM spent money like a drunken sailor doesn't mean Jbot will or should. Kyle Quincey is an example, but signing a few vets on D is less likely with Gorges and his cap hit still in Buffalo.


I'm not sure he does. Besides, long term, the ROI is franchise value.

How do you know that wasn't a factor in the firing of TM?

1.3 in dead cap space is 1.7% of the cap. We also have a rebate of 458k from Hodgson in 2018-19, which mean dead space of only 850K or 1.1% assuming we buy out Gorges. This amount of money is meaningless and won't be an in issue in re-signing Sam or Jack or anyone else.


If you insist on Hammymathing (yes, I made it a verb) this, the alternative could be a net of $1.8M in cap space next year with Hodgson's rebate plus the lack of buyout cost. We could sign two Quinceys!

#63 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 05:14 PM

How do you know that wasn't a factor in the firing of TM?

 

1.3 in dead cap space is 1.7% of the cap.  We also have a rebate of 458k from Hodgson in 2018-19, which mean dead space of only 850K or 1.1% assuming we buy out Gorges.  This amount of money is meaningless and won't be an in issue in re-signing Sam or Jack or anyone else. 

 

I don't, but he hasn't shown a worry of spending money in the past. Firing GMTM is actually a prime example, he's now paying two NHL GM salaries where he could have just told GMTM: this is your budget, exceed it at your own peril.

 

$1.3M is the difference between signing Matt Ellis and Marcus Foligno to be your fourth liner. Which would you prefer?



#64 GASabresFan

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 09:35 PM

I don't, but he hasn't shown a worry of spending money in the past. Firing GMTM is actually a prime example, he's now paying two NHL GM salaries where he could have just told GMTM: this is your budget, exceed it at your own peril.

 

 

 GMTM spent 81 mill on a team that was 5th worst in the NHL.  TP may not have given him a firm budget, but my guess is he expected better performance from a top 7 actual payroll.



#65 ubkev

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 09:38 PM

Something along the lines of "if I want to make money I'll drill another well.

GMTM spent 81 mill on a team that was 5th worst in the NHL. TP may not have given him a firm budget, but my guess is he expected better performance from a top 7 actual payroll.


Word!