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Should GMTM Keep His Job?


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#41 Marvelo

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:51 PM

Fires disco and puts Terry Murray behind the bench.

 

Why not do it right after the Ducks beat the tar out of the Sabres? Why wait? See if Murray Sr. can do something.



#42 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:59 PM

Bylsma had a cup at the time. Faith-based or not, right or wrong, that was going to give him a massive edge over anyone else that remained

Well it was that, his ability to apparently handle star players, and the fact that he had already coached Jack



#43 Crusader1969

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:05 PM

Im sorry but I can not allow anyone to classify the McNabb or Pysyk trades as bad trades! how did McNabb do last night? oh right he was a healthy scratch...... again!! Also, shouldn't we wait on Fasching before making judgement?? As for the Pysyk trade, He is 5th out of 6 regular dmen on the Panthers in TOI at even strength. Is he an analytics darling? yes. but is he trusted by his coaches??

 

watch the leafs first goal  - 1 min into the video.

 


Edited by Crusader1969, 17 March 2017 - 05:07 PM.


#44 Jacque Richard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:15 PM

I was looking back to the Sabres, Pre-Pegulas, and the final season was 100 points, 8 games above .500 and a division championship. 
When, realistically, will the Sabres even be back to THAT level?  73 months into Pegulas' era and counting.  
It's easy to forget - while the Sabres had issues, they were a decent team when Terrance Pegula bought them.  
Now?  For all Pegula's lofty talk about the Stanley Cup being the driving 'goal' for the team -  the Sabres now, 7 years later, will be lucky to hit 80 pts this season;  and money is being wasted left and right.  
 
The Pegulas certainly aren't 'all that' as team owners.   The Bills, similarly, have retrograded after 2 years+ of Pegula ownership.

Agree here

#45 dudacek

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:21 PM

That's true. A coach rarely outlasts the GM, but it does happen occasionally. (Dave Tippett outlasted GM Don Maloney) The GM usually fires the coach to save his own behind.

JJ, the acquisition of Legwand wasn't the problem. Legwand did just fine for us in his limited role. It was that his acquisition and the cap hit that went with was a symptom of a greater problem and that problem was the over payment for Lehner. Ottawa received a better draft pick then the market for Lehner plus we gave them $3 mill in cap relief which they desperately wanted. We essentially received no compensation for taking Legwand, a player they didn't want any longer and certainly not a $3 mill, off their hands. Get it now?

This is Darcy at his finest. Micro-analyzing the fine detail of a trade to maximize value.
I want our GM to identify talent and go get it.
If Murray has identified Lehner as the top goalie in the market and taking on Legwand's salary is the difference between getting him or not, and I can afford that salary, then I take the salary.

And then burn Murray at the stake for misevaluating Lehner. 😈

I'll go one further: I need him to be able to get out from under at least one of our bad contracts. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo, and Gorges, all on the books is a significant hindrance to improving the team (for example, we can't take Stoner off the Ducks' hands to sweeten a trade). And that's before Eichel and Reinhart get big raises.
I don't really believe in the "Murray overpays" meme, but he did have the assets to beat the market to make some deals happen if he had to. He doesn't anymore, so to really improve the roster without robbing Peter to pay Paul, I think he has to demonstrate a shrewdness he has yet to do. Put a little differently, when has he acquired a player underapprreciated by the market? He's paying sticker price, which isn't inherently a problem, but by swinging and missing on every major blue line move, he's in a spot where he needs two, but can probably only afford to pay sticker for one (and even then, of he has to burn an asset to get out from under a bad contract, maybe he can't pay sticker at all).
I think he's done enough good to get a chance to correct it, but he's made his job harder. And, of course, should be bring Bylsma back...BURN THE WITCH!

I like 😍 post and am really sad that Qwk is the one that gets to cuddle with Blue at the meet-up.

Edited by dudacek, 17 March 2017 - 05:24 PM.


#46 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:35 PM

I cannot keep track of all of those I am meant to cuddle.

#47 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:35 PM

That's true.  A coach rarely outlasts the GM, but it does happen occasionally.  (Dave Tippett outlasted GM Don Maloney)  The GM usually fires the coach to save his own behind.

 

JJ, the acquisition of Legwand wasn't the problem.  Legwand did just fine for us in his limited role.  It was that his acquisition and the cap hit that went with was a symptom of a greater problem and that problem was the over payment for Lehner.  Ottawa received a better draft pick then the market for Lehner plus we gave them $3 mill in cap relief which they desperately wanted.  We essentially received no compensation for taking Legwand, a player they didn't want any longer and certainly not a $3 mill, off their hands.  Get it now?

 

I get it, it's petty. It had absolutely no negative bearing on this team whatsoever. 



#48 tom webster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:39 PM

Murray said specifically when he was hired. I do think he said 3 years at one point but can't find the specific quote. Regardless he said this shouldn't take 5 years when he was hired and now he implies it will.

Here is what he said then
"This is not going to be a five-year rebuild, not for me anyway. That's not what I want."
"When you tear it down, it doesn't happen overnight," Murray said. "I want to rebuild here properly, which takes time. But it doesn't have to take years."

This is what he said 3/1/2017
"… I have a plan. Today was a small, little speed bump to that plan. That's all. We've got lots of picks. We've got lots of good prospects coming and are kids have come up, and some of them have played very well … I'm excited about the direction we're going in. but it takes time. I've given my plan to ownership and my scouting staff. We know our timeline, and it's not an exact timeline. There are things that come up to change it, make it quicker, slow it down, but those are just little things every day."

Doesn't sound like the same plan to me. I started the rebuild thread because I believe and have always believed that the rebuild will take 5 years or longer. GMTM clearly thought he could do it in less time. I'm not sure why. He created the expectations that we should be farther along then we are, and he made the deals to accelerate the rebuild and he should be held responsible when those fail as they did this season.


It's going to take 4 years which is less then 5.

#49 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:46 PM

He'll get to hire one more coach. He won't get to hire the one after that.

We've come along way from the days of ZFG irrational exhuberance. Although we still have a good bit of that directed elsewhwere on a team that has shown nothing.

#50 Scottysabres

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:03 PM

After the team has gone 2-8-2 in their last 12 despite GMTM's pep talk and it's becoming a fait accompli that DD is going to be shown the door for this team's lack of improvement in the standings, the next and only question left is should GMTM keep his job as well?
 
This is highly unlikely but there is growing body of evidence that he may not be the man for the job or at the very least, PSE needs to hire someone to mentor him like Tor did for Shanny.  
 
1) Roster is hopelessly flawed.  This is mostly about the 4 lousy D he acquired, and his failure to properly build D depth, but also the abundance of forwards that aren't really helping the team.
2) Poor professional player evaluation.  Look no further then the D.  
3) Mediocre trades and acquisitions.  Poor trades like the McNabb and Pysyk deals headline the list, but with the except of ROR, all the major trades have some questionable aspects like the taking on Legwand and his cap hit in the Lehner deal.  Add the length and size of the Moulson contract.  Right now the Sabres are saddled with 4 terrible contracts to the tune of 20 mil and all were either given or acquired by GMTM despite only 3 years on the job.  Frankly only FA acquisitions Gionta and Okposo are earning their paycheck.
4) Bombastic personality and attitude.  His pep talk failed to inspire the team, especially when you consider he also recently blamed the players for a bad road trip in the media.  They may not be playing hard for DD anymore, but this may also be a response to playing for GMTM.  This might also be hurting his ability to recruit, especially younger players to Buffalo, such as Vesey, Bayreuther, Caggulia, and now Petersen.  With Eichel and Risto to play with you'd think people would be clamoring to come here.
5) Rebuild plan might also be hopelessly flawed.  He told everyone that he could build a contender in 3 years.  His plan to trade assets for youngish vets to move the team into contention faster has clearly failed, mostly because he done a crappy job of acquiring these youngish vets.  Kane, Bogo, Franson, Kuilkov, ROR, Lehner and Okposo were all part of that plan.  None of the defenders have worked and their is reason to worry that Kane might want out and that Lehner, although much improved, has some significant flaws in his game to keep him from being the anchor for the team long-term.  He has now retreated from his earlier statements.  No surprise, but now if he goes toward the traditional rebuild, he has traded away significant assets that should have been in place.  
6) He hired DD ;) .  
 
Once he pushes DD out the door, the 2nd coach he'll have fired, the focus will be solely on him.  He created this mess and now he has no choice but to own it.  If we don't make significant progress under his new coach, there is no one left to blame is there?


I started the other Murray discussion thread, specifically because of what you laid out here. I believe now Murray is in way over his head. One off season isn't going to fix the defensive mess in my opinion.
He's boxed himself in and set himself up for failure. The time for excuses has passed. ###### or get off the pot Tim!

#51 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:07 PM

He'll get to hire one more coach. He won't get to hire the one after that.

We've come along way from the days of ZFG irrational exhuberance. Although we still have a good bit of that directed elsewhwere on a team that has shown nothing.

Now we've got a lot of people that have irrationally gone the other way on GMTM.

#52 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

I think that overall Murray has done a very good job.

He started at less than zero. It is a process that takes time.

In 3 years, yes 3, we will be pretty close, or else Murray is gone.

#53 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

Now we've got a lot of people that have irrationally gone the other way on GMTM.

 

It's not irrational.  In this case there is actual performance to base it on.  the lack of team progress in a key year is troubling.

 

I'm firmly in the "You've got one offseason left to prove you deserve the job" camp.  He appears to have drafted reasonably well, but time will tell.  But I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has pro player evaluation chops anymore.  And I say that fully understanding that signings like Moulson were all about the cap floor.


Edited by We've, 17 March 2017 - 06:35 PM.


#54 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:58 PM

It's not irrational. In this case there is actual performance to base it on. the lack of team progress in a key year is troubling.

I'm firmly in the "You've got one offseason left to prove you deserve the job" camp. He appears to have drafted reasonably well, but time will tell. But I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has pro player evaluation chops anymore. And I say that fully understanding that signings like Moulson were all about the cap floor.

It is. You can pretend that the Dan Bylsma doesn't exist or isn't a problem, but he does and is. I'm all for being down on Murray because he hired Bylsma and kept him around too long, but most of the angst is about the D.

It would've been nice if Murray pulled off a Fowler trade last summer, but he didn't like the price. Who knows if that was a good move or not? I blame Dan for not putting Kulikov in a position to succeed.

#55 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:02 PM

It is. You can pretend that the Dan Bylsma doesn't exist or isn't a problem, but he does and is. I'm all for being down on Murray because he hired Bylsma and kept him around too long, but most of the angst is about the D.

It would've been nice if Murray pulled off a Fowler trade last summer, but he didn't like the price. Who knows if that was a good move or not? I blame Dan for not putting Kulikov in a position to succeed.

 

I do too....but I don't blame Dan for Kulikov breaking his ass and being unable to skate. And even healthy, Kulikov is more of a low-end 2nd pair guy than a real solution, and that's on Murray.



#56 bunomatic

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:22 PM

I'm still in GMTMs corner. I may not last much longer if he can't find a coach thats capable of coaching in todays N.H.L.



#57 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:30 PM

It is. You can pretend that the Dan Bylsma doesn't exist or isn't a problem, but he does and is. I'm all for being down on Murray because he hired Bylsma and kept him around too long, but most of the angst is about the D.

It would've been nice if Murray pulled off a Fowler trade last summer, but he didn't like the price. Who knows if that was a good move or not? I blame Dan for not putting Kulikov in a position to succeed.

 

Bylsma and a flawed roster that has been called fragile by teammates 3 times now.  GM needs to be part of the finger pointing.



#58 PASabreFan

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:26 PM

He'll get to hire one more coach. He won't get to hire the one after that.

We've come along way from the days of ZFG irrational exhuberance. Although we still have a good bit of that directed elsewhwere on a team that has shown nothing.

Knock it off with the ebonics.



#59 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:29 PM

Knock it off with the ebonics.

 

You'll have to explain the joke to me.



#60 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:32 PM

It is. You can pretend that the Dan Bylsma doesn't exist or isn't a problem, but he does and is. I'm all for being down on Murray because he hired Bylsma and kept him around too long, but most of the angst is about the D.

It would've been nice if Murray pulled off a Fowler trade last summer, but he didn't like the price. Who knows if that was a good move or not? I blame Dan for not putting Kulikov in a position to succeed.

You, I like you


Bylsma and a flawed roster that has been called fragile by teammates 3 times now.  GM needs to be part of the finger pointing.

They're only fragile because they're coach is. Pittsburgh had the exact same complaints about being fragile. I've linked the article a bunch of times from their playoff series

 

Is the roster flawed? No doubt. Is it outshot 2-1 every night blow 3 goal leads flawed? Hell no. It's the same damn roster Toronto has, if not better



#61 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:39 PM

You, I like you


They're only fragile because they're coach is. Pittsburgh had the exact same complaints about being fragile. I've linked the article a bunch of times from their playoff series

 

Is the roster flawed? No doubt. Is it outshot 2-1 every night blow 3 goal leads flawed? Hell no. It's the same damn roster Toronto has, if not better

 

This team is performing at tank level.  It's not Ron Rolston behind the bench.  Or Ted Nolan.  The roster isn't what you think it is.



#62 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:41 PM

This team is performing at tank level.  It's not Ron Rolston behind the bench.  Or Ted Nolan.  The roster isn't what you think it is.

Hahahah seriously? Do we have to go back and dig up Flagg's post on the defense difference alone? 

 

This is a playoff roster



#63 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:46 PM

Hahahah seriously? Do we have to go back and dig up Flagg's post on the defense difference alone? 

 

This is a playoff roster

 

I agree that tactics are an issue.  I don't agree that we have a playoff roster. 



#64 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:59 PM

I agree that tactics are an issue.  I don't agree that we have a playoff roster. 

 

Bubble team roster. It sure as heck isn't anywhere near tank-level bad.



#65 Crusader1969

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:06 PM

The man in the last two years or so has brought in Kane, ROR, Okposo and basically gave up nothing at this point for them. Maybe one of the draft picks he traded away becomes a player but at this point not one has.

He devised a plan to bring us Eichel and Reinhart.

He has 3 of the top ranked prospects outside of the NHL in Pu, Nylander, Asplund

His 2nd round pick in 2015 is looking like he is going to be a key member of the team in a year or two

He brought in a goalie that is among the league leaders in Sv% and has played behind a flawed and injury plagued d corps

I honestly can't think of anyone who I'd rather have in charge to fix the defence. Please don't bring up pysyk and McNabb - neither of them or anything more than a bottom pair player on a good team.

#66 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:06 PM

Bubble team roster. It sure as heck isn't anywhere near tank-level bad.

 

I think it has bubble team skill level.  I also think there is an intangibles problem.


Edited by We've, 17 March 2017 - 09:07 PM.


#67 Crusader1969

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:07 PM

Hahahah seriously? Do we have to go back and dig up Flagg's post on the defense difference alone? 
 
This is a playoff roster

. Totally disagree, it's coming but was never a team that would be a bubble playoff team this season

#68 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:10 PM

. Totally disagree, it's coming but was never a team that would be a bubble playoff team this season

We've been outside of the playoffs by 2 points multiple times this season. And then we blow 2 goal leads and lose 3 in a row vs possession teams like the Bruins. This is a playoff roster. Maybe one that gets slaughtered in the first round, but there is no way in hell we don't have a roster that is as good if not better than at least half the league 



#69 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:15 PM

We've been outside of the playoffs by 2 points multiple times this season. And then we blow 2 goal leads and lose 3 in a row vs possession teams like the Bruins. This is a playoff roster. Maybe one that gets slaughtered in the first round, but there is no way in hell we don't have a roster that is as good if not better than at least half the league

You dont consider the fact that they couldn't close the deal multiple times is a sign that they don't belong? I don't know how you couldn't.

They've melted every time they were close. That's a pretty clear sign.

Edited by We've, 17 March 2017 - 09:16 PM.


#70 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:17 PM

You dont consider the fact that they couldn't close the deal multiple times is a sign that they don't belong? I don't know how you couldn't.

They've melted every time they were close. That's a pretty clear sign.

It's a sign of a bad couch. 



#71 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:18 PM

It's a sign of a bad couch.

Yeah, Jack needs new furniture too.

Is it a bad couch that got them close too? He desreves as mich credit for getting close as the players do. And as much blame when they fold.

Edited by We've, 17 March 2017 - 09:19 PM.


#72 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:19 PM

I agree that tactics are an issue. I don't agree that we have a playoff roster.

Have you seen the talent on the Canes and Leafs? We're so much better on paper, yet so so much worse on the ice. It's too significant to be written off as our players not being as good as we thought they were. Especially when every single player acquired from elsewhere's stats have dropped significantly with Bylsma.

#73 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:20 PM

Yeah, Jack needs new furniture too.
Is it a bad couch that got them close too?

You want to give Bylsma credit for them being .500?


Have you seen the talent on the Canes and Leafs? We're so much better on paper, yet so so much worse on the ice. It's too significant to be written off as our players not being as good as we thought they were. Especially when every single player acquired from elsewhere's stats have dropped significantly with Bylsma.

Not too mention that Kadri and JVR are suddenly Selke candidates and completely revived. Wonder who's responsible for that...



#74 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:22 PM

Have you seen the talent on the Canes and Leafs? We're so much better on paper, yet so so much worse on the ice. It's too significant to be written off as our players not being as good as we thought they were. Especially when every single player acquired from elsewhere's stats have dropped significantly with Bylsma.


Same happened under Ruff when the team lost its soul. Hmmm.....

You want to give Bylsma credit for them being .500?

Not too mention that Kadri and JVR are suddenly Selke candidates and completely revived. Wonder who's responsible for that...


Im not giving anyone on this team any credit. The whole thing top to bottom is flawed.

#75 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:28 PM

Same happened under Ruff when the team lost its soul. Hmmm.....

Im not giving anyone on this team any credit. The whole thing top to bottom is flawed.

Except when Ruff left, only 1-2 of those players from that team amounted to anything afterwards. Okposo has been a consistent 2 way forward his entire career. He posted the worst possession stats of his career this year, second only to his rookie year. O'Reilly? Goes from averaging a 50% Corsi for his career, including the 43% his rookie year, to a sub par 48% as a Sabre.

 

Players come here and get worse. Other coaches go to new teams with the same players there and those players get better. That's not a coincidence 



#76 We've

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:37 PM

Except when Ruff left, only 1-2 of those players from that team amounted to anything afterwards. Okposo has been a consistent 2 way forward his entire career. He posted the worst possession stats of his career this year, second only to his rookie year. O'Reilly? Goes from averaging a 50% Corsi for his career, including the 43% his rookie year, to a sub par 48% as a Sabre.

Players come here and get worse. Other coaches go to new teams with the same players there and those players get better. That's not a coincidence


It is also not a coincidence that a collection of vets from long term losing organizations haven't been able to guide the kids to become winners.

#77 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:40 PM

Our style is just so obviously wrong for our roster. We have good forwards and a suspect D core, lets spend our games in a defensive posture. It's so stupid.

It is also not a coincidence that a collection of vets from long term losing organizations haven't been able to guide the kids to become winners.

lol

#78 WildCard

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:41 PM

It is also not a coincidence that a collection of vets from long term losing organizations haven't been able to guide the kids to become winners.

They play the system they're given.


Edited by WildCard, 17 March 2017 - 09:50 PM.


#79 yse325

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:21 AM

This is Darcy at his finest. Micro-analyzing the fine detail of a trade to maximize value.
I want our GM to identify talent and go get it.
If Murray has identified Lehner as the top goalie in the market and taking on Legwand's salary is the difference between getting him or not, and I can afford that salary, then I take the salary.
And then burn Murray at the stake for misevaluating Lehner. I like post and am really sad that Qwk is the one that gets to cuddle with Blue at the meet-up.

As True points out, GMTM can no longer just through money and assets at the problem. He is going to be more cap and asset wise going forward as he has spent to the cap, stuck us wth bad contracts and traded away many of our prospects and picks. This isn't to say the cupboard is bare, but a more shrewd use of the cap and PPP is warranted going forward and it is a skill GMTM has yet to display and something Regier had in an over-abundance.

Edited by yse325, 18 March 2017 - 12:25 AM.


#80 WildCard

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:23 AM

As True points out, GMTM can no longer just through money and assets at the problem. He is going to be more cap and asset wise going forward as he has spent to the cap, stuck us wth bad contracts and traded away many of our prospects and picks.

We have what? 3 bad contracts? And 2 of them really aren't terrible. You want bad contracts? Lucic, Ladd, Brown, DiPietro, any goalie in Dallas