Jump to content


Photo

Compliance Buyouts 2013


  • Please log in to reply
373 replies to this topic

#361 We've

We've

    Self-appointed Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,921 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in your head

Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:15 AM

If you have your eyes on the long term, I think that's exactly what you do with your better prospects. That said, obviously you don't do it for the Matt Ellis type of player.


Yep.

If we were in win now mode then Appooshhalowski makes sense. But we are not. We are in develop for later mode. You put the kids in and let them learn their way through it.

Bringing in a center to compete with the kids and take ice time away is counter productive at this point and is going to give us more of what we've had over the last 7 years.

Edited by weave, 05 July 2013 - 10:15 AM.


#362 apuszczalowski

apuszczalowski

    Commander of the Armies of the North

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,264 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:03 AM

If you have your eyes on the long term, I think that's exactly what you do with your better prospects. That said, obviously you don't do it for the Matt Ellis type of player.

But what team has been successful rebuilding by following this method of just gutting at team of veterans and filling it with their prospects who can now learn on the job? Right now, (if you remove Vanek and Miller), who besides the coaching staff is going to teach them? On Forward you have Ott and Stafford as the vets, on defence you have Ehrhoff, and in net you have nobody. Do you expect Enroth to develop by getting shelled every night because of the "developping" youth defencemen in front of him are still learning? Do the young defencemen learn anything by continuing to have to play in their own end because the young forwards "deveolpping" on the job can't keep the play going in the other end?

Successful teams rebuild with a balanced mixture of youth and veterans, not throwing their young players to the wolves and saying "here, learn on the job witht he rest of them"

#363 TrueBlueGED

TrueBlueGED

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,997 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:12 AM

But what team has been successful rebuilding by following this method of just gutting at team of veterans and filling it with their prospects who can now learn on the job? Right now, (if you remove Vanek and Miller), who besides the coaching staff is going to teach them? On Forward you have Ott and Stafford as the vets, on defence you have Ehrhoff, and in net you have nobody. Do you expect Enroth to develop by getting shelled every night because of the "developping" youth defencemen in front of him are still learning? Do the young defencemen learn anything by continuing to have to play in their own end because the young forwards "deveolpping" on the job can't keep the play going in the other end?

Successful teams rebuild with a balanced mixture of youth and veterans, not throwing their young players to the wolves and saying "here, learn on the job witht he rest of them"


Where have I argued differently? I've never said I'm enthusiastic about throwing 8 rookies on the ice at once. My entire point was that with some prospects "you have to earn it or you're stuck in the AHL forever!" isn't a good way to go about things.

#364 LaFontaineToMogilny

LaFontaineToMogilny

    Denim Demon

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:20 AM

I agree with the idea that you need to make players earn their spot. I mean, if the kids coming up have to compete for a spot against say Gabrovski, excellent! If they are not able to wrestle a spot from a player like Gabrovski then they are not the players the Sabres need. Some will have to show in the AHL and in call ups that they are capable of taking that spot, some can show it on the line below Gabrovski, while others might have to move to the wing to show that they will eventually be able to grab that spot.

Or you can just hand these guys their spots and hope they grow into the responsibility. Perhaps they go all Tavares with it, but I am much more inclined to think they'd go the Foligno route.

#365 apuszczalowski

apuszczalowski

    Commander of the Armies of the North

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,264 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:23 AM

I agree with the idea that you need to make players earn their spot. I mean, if the kids coming up have to compete for a spot against say Gabrovski, excellent! If they are not able to wrestle a spot from a player like Gabrovski then they are not the players the Sabres need. Some will have to show in the AHL and in call ups that they are capable of taking that spot, some can show it on the line below Gabrovski, while others might have to move to the wing to show that they will eventually be able to grab that spot.

Or you can just hand these guys their spots and hope they grow into the responsibility. Perhaps they go all Tavares with it, but I am much more inclined to think they'd go the Foligno route.

Exactly, I can't think of many prospects (aside from the guys who get taken at the top of the draft) that have just been handed a roster spot without having to earn it and succeeded to deveolp on the job in the NHL.

Teams don't get better by giving spots to guys without them earning spots. Usually thats how you end up with guys who get moved because they need a change in scenery and have never lived up to their hype.

#366 TrueBlueGED

TrueBlueGED

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,997 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

I agree with the idea that you need to make players earn their spot. I mean, if the kids coming up have to compete for a spot against say Gabrovski, excellent! If they are not able to wrestle a spot from a player like Gabrovski then they are not the players the Sabres need. Some will have to show in the AHL and in call ups that they are capable of taking that spot, some can show it on the line below Gabrovski, while others might have to move to the wing to show that they will eventually be able to grab that spot.

Or you can just hand these guys their spots and hope they grow into the responsibility. Perhaps they go all Tavares with it, but I am much more inclined to think they'd go the Foligno route.


Is it really a good idea to have a blanket rule? Teams, prospects, players...every situation is unique and should be handled as such. I'd say there is about a 1% chance that any mid-level prospect would be able to beat out Grabovski for a center position in a fair competition. How is it advantageous to create a roster where young kids, short of phenoms, simply cannot break in? That doesn't help build a team for the long haul.

#367 We've

We've

    Self-appointed Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,921 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:in your head

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:34 AM

But what team has been successful rebuilding by following this method of just gutting at team of veterans and filling it with their prospects who can now learn on the job? Right now, (if you remove Vanek and Miller), who besides the coaching staff is going to teach them? On Forward you have Ott and Stafford as the vets, on defence you have Ehrhoff, and in net you have nobody. Do you expect Enroth to develop by getting shelled every night because of the "developping" youth defencemen in front of him are still learning? Do the young defencemen learn anything by continuing to have to play in their own end because the young forwards "deveolpping" on the job can't keep the play going in the other end?

Successful teams rebuild with a balanced mixture of youth and veterans, not throwing their young players to the wolves and saying "here, learn on the job witht he rest of them"


And I would argue that our 3 centers are better served by giving them the ice time they need to develop, not take it away by bringing in vets. Instead of bringing in competition that will result in less ice time for them we should bring in vet wingers that will help take the pressure off and set examples. We are in pretty good shape on LW to support these young guys with Vanek, Ott, and Leino but we need to bring in vets to help them on the right side and replace Stafford and Kaleta.

#368 LaFontaineToMogilny

LaFontaineToMogilny

    Denim Demon

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:38 AM

Is it really a good idea to have a blanket rule? Teams, prospects, players...every situation is unique and should be handled as such. I'd say there is about a 1% chance that any mid-level prospect would be able to beat out Grabovski for a center position in a fair competition. How is it advantageous to create a roster where young kids, short of phenoms, simply cannot break in? That doesn't help build a team for the long haul.


It is never a good idea to have a blanket rule for anything. That said, it's not like adding Gabrovski gives the Sabres four stud centers that no one could ever hope to unseat. The way I see Gabrovski (for example) fitting in would be as a player who would step onto the second line, and push Hodgson for the first line job. Now Grigorenko, Girgensons and Larrson potentially have to fight for two more center spots. Excellent! If Girgensons is not able to secure a spot here, AHL it is until he can knock someone else out of the lineup. Same for Grigorenko, he should be looking up at a player like Gabrovski and know he has to become better than him to ever get to the second line, let alone the first. If he is a lazy, moody weirdo like some people here fear, he won't be able to grab that spot. In fact, there should be other prospects breathing down his neck for his spot on the roster and kicking him out of the lineup (or out of a center spot at least). And so on and so on.

In reality, it's unlikely that all of the prospects we have at center will become NHL regulars, so make them show who will be able to fight for that opportunity.

#369 apuszczalowski

apuszczalowski

    Commander of the Armies of the North

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,264 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:57 AM

It is never a good idea to have a blanket rule for anything. That said, it's not like adding Gabrovski gives the Sabres four stud centers that no one could ever hope to unseat. The way I see Gabrovski (for example) fitting in would be as a player who would step onto the second line, and push Hodgson for the first line job. Now Grigorenko, Girgensons and Larrson potentially have to fight for two more center spots. Excellent! If Girgensons is not able to secure a spot here, AHL it is until he can knock someone else out of the lineup. Same for Grigorenko, he should be looking up at a player like Gabrovski and know he has to become better than him to ever get to the second line, let alone the first. If he is a lazy, moody weirdo like some people here fear, he won't be able to grab that spot. In fact, there should be other prospects breathing down his neck for his spot on the roster and kicking him out of the lineup (or out of a center spot at least). And so on and so on.

In reality, it's unlikely that all of the prospects we have at center will become NHL regulars, so make them show who will be able to fight for that opportunity.

Thats how the successful teams do it and thats how you get better without putting all your eggs in one basket and hope they can all learn on the job in the NHL and become nhl players. Acquiring quality players and making the younger guys earn their way onto the roster by beating out the guys on the roster that are above them makes the rebuild much less painful then saying that your gonna bring up your minor leaguers to learn on the job in the NHL and hope they all become good in a few years

#370 TrueBlueGED

TrueBlueGED

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,997 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:21 PM

At some point you have to see what your prospects have at the NHL level, whether they "earn" it in a competition or not. Otherwise you're just spinning your tires with temporary solutions at various positions. And for what it's worth, I think this is how most teams operate...once some prospects have proven themselves in the AHL, they get penciled into the NHL lineup. Once they're there it's up to them to earn their ice time, but I'm not at all convinced "training camp competition" is the norm in the NHL.

#371 apuszczalowski

apuszczalowski

    Commander of the Armies of the North

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,264 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:21 PM

At some point you have to see what your prospects have at the NHL level, whether they "earn" it in a competition or not. Otherwise you're just spinning your tires with temporary solutions at various positions. And for what it's worth, I think this is how most teams operate...once some prospects have proven themselves in the AHL, they get penciled into the NHL lineup. Once they're there it's up to them to earn their ice time, but I'm not at all convinced "training camp competition" is the norm in the NHL.

Sure, on teams that are trying to fill one spot or 2 in their lineup they may decide to bring up someone from the AHL to fill the spot on the roster where they have to earn the right to stay on the roster and move up. How many teams do this with multiple players at the same time? If fans here had their way, theres a chance that 3 of the 4 Centres this year could end up being guys without much NHL experience, and thats not including a goaltender without a full seasons worth of games played, and any of the young guys on defence.

#372 TrueBlueGED

TrueBlueGED

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,997 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:34 PM

Sure, on teams that are trying to fill one spot or 2 in their lineup they may decide to bring up someone from the AHL to fill the spot on the roster where they have to earn the right to stay on the roster and move up. How many teams do this with multiple players at the same time? If fans here had their way, theres a chance that 3 of the 4 Centres this year could end up being guys without much NHL experience, and thats not including a goaltender without a full seasons worth of games played, and any of the young guys on defence.


I agree. I think icing a roster full of rookies is a recipe for disaster, and how rebuilds can turn into Edmonton rather than Chicago. But that wasn't really my point in the first place. I happen to be on board with signing Grabovski if the price is right, I just don't think "every prospect has to earn it through competition" is the right approach to take. I think Weave's point is you can get supporting players who can help the rookies along without them necessarily playing the same position and forcing competition.

Edited by TrueBluePhD, 05 July 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#373 X. Benedict

X. Benedict

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,807 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:51 AM

New goal: I want all former Badgers for Sabres defensemen.

Gilbert, Drewiske, McBain, McCabe, McDonagh, Schultz, Gardiner, and Suter, with assistant coach Brian Rafalski.

:lol:

#374 Andrew Amerk

Andrew Amerk

    Heart Means Everything.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,181 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:12 PM

Who the F is Gabrovski?