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The "trial" of Terry Pegula


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#441 Hank

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 02:50 PM

Read the thread, dude. There's plenty of evidence, not the least of which was Terry owning the spending spree of summer 2011. Continue with your narrative though.

It goes to my central point. If one of our Eastern Conference rivals has an anti-analytics owner, and presumably will hire people who believe the same, if not outright prohibit any signficant use of analytics, and that guy has no hockey basis for his stance, what kind of advantage do we have if our owner says, "Hell if I know. This is why I hire good hockey people. They decide."? You might get the same decision in the end, but it would be based on something sound and you'd know that other decisions emerged from sound thinking. I just want hockey people making hockey decisions. It's not that controversial a position. Does anyone really care what Pegula thinks about Steven Stamkos, other than to tell Murray that if you want him, I'll pony up?


I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

#442 That Aud Smell

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:00 PM

So if I understand this correctly, Mirtle wasn't tweeting about TP? Just about the concept of ownership meddling? And this somehow has been deemed to vindicate PAFan's ongoing, based-wholly-on-speculation (not sure whether this is "speculation that" or "speculation whether") crusade?

If you must.

 

I regret that I was unclear in my initial posting. Yeah - no. No way was Mirtle talking about Pegula. Just making a general point about how to own an NHL franchise.

 

I found it striking that a well-respected Canadian hockey journo essentially said what PA had said about how an owner should go about owning. If others don't see it, well, then, they don't see it. But I think it's obtuse to refuse to acknowledge that there's anything to be considered here.


I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

 

Good point.

 

And the point was made by PA upthread, too: People who become billionaires are more or less pre-selected as "meddlers" of the highest order. That's how they became wealthy -- meddling the sh1t out of everything in their lives.


I just want hockey people making hockey decisions.

 

Hear, hear. On this, we have always agreed.

 

 

Does anyone really care what Pegula thinks about Steven Stamkos

 

Has he met the man? Taking stock of his character? Determined whether he's a leader of men?

 

(Who did Pegula say that stuff about -- was it Gaustad?)



#443 PASabreFan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:09 PM

Hey, everyone needs a hobby.

It keeps me off the streets!

 

(Who did Pegula say that stuff about -- was it Gaustad?)

He looked Gaustad in the eyes and saw his soul. Wait, that was W. and Vlad.



#444 That Aud Smell

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:11 PM

It keeps me off the streets!

 

He looked Gaustad in the eyes and saw his soul. Wait, that was W. and Vlad.

 

It's going to make me nuts if I can't find the source. I remember reading it. 



#445 PASabreFan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:13 PM

I believe it's human nature to want to be a part of and have input in a business that you own. ESPECIALLY if you are a fan owning a team. I believe almost everyone of us posters would "meddle" on some level. If you say you wouldn't I wholeheartedly believe you, but you sir, are a rare bird indeed.

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.


It's going to make me nuts if I can't find the source. I remember reading it. 

It's in the WGR Audio vault. Somewhere. Start with the transcripts, circa February 2011. Bwahahahahaha.



#446 That Aud Smell

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:14 PM

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.

 

The gripers can gripe (and the haters can hate), but stuff like this is why I stick around.

 

Oh, and I didn't find the source for the Gaustad thing, but I did find this:

 

http://forums.sabres...egula/?p=488547



#447 PASabreFan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:21 PM

The gripers can gripe (and the haters can hate), but stuff like this is why I stick around.

 

Oh, and I didn't find the source for the Gaustad thing, but I did find this:

 

http://forums.sabres...egula/?p=488547

A Google search for gaustad - pegula - +"leader of men" brought me back here to one of your posts. You said it was from the original tear-jerking presser.



#448 That Aud Smell

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:26 PM

A Google search for gaustad - pegula - +"leader of men" brought me back here to one of your posts. You said it was from the original tear-jerking presser.

 

I think it was from the editorial board thing - which was the same day, I think. The entire video is hosted on the BN website now. It's like 45 minutes long, though.



#449 nfreeman

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 04:35 PM

I regret that I was unclear in my initial posting. Yeah - no. No way was Mirtle talking about Pegula. Just making a general point about how to own an NHL franchise.

I found it striking that a well-respected Canadian hockey journo essentially said what PA had said about how an owner should go about owning. If others don't see it, well, then, they don't see it. But I think it's obtuse to refuse to acknowledge that there's anything to be considered here.


But is anyone really disputing the proposition that an owner shouldn't force hockey decisions on his GM if the goal is to produce the best team? My impression of this discussion is that many have said the owner is entitled to do what he wants with his team, while others have said essentially that he/she is not so entitled. Is anyone saying that owners weighing in on hockey decisions improves he on-ice product?

The rest of the discussion has revolved around a forensic discussion of children's tweets to speculate that/whether their dad did in fact meddle.

#450 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 04:57 PM

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it. Allen would be out and the largest, most soulful black lady would be in.


It's in the WGR Audio vault. Somewhere. Start with the transcripts, circa February 2011. Bwahahahahaha.

 

I continue to take issue with your dislike of Doug Allen. He's great! He respects the anthem and doesn't try to re-write it in his own image. A true pro's pro.



#451 Darryl Shannon's +/-

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 05:56 PM

Odd bird too. I just want that Cup and know deep down my hockey opinions would not be better than my GM's. Now on the business side I would meddle the ###### out of it.

 

Remember that Mike Milbury was once a GM and that a stranger pulled off the street probably could have done that job better.  As an owner who cares about more than making a profit on a team, don't you bear responsibility to oversee your product?



#452 PASabreFan

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 06:31 PM

Remember that Mike Milbury was once a GM and that a stranger pulled off the street probably could have done that job better.  As an owner who cares about more than making a profit on a team, don't you bear responsibility to oversee your product?

Oversee, absolutely. I do not want or crave a powerless owner who just writes the checks. Terry can set the mission, hire people to run the team, fire those people and so forth. He plays a huge role. Macro stuff. I'd even argue that as owner he should have a special veto power on the really big issues. "We're not tanking." "We're not signing that criminal." "Sorry, we're not trading Jack Eichel." Those situations would be very limited.


I continue to take issue with your dislike of Doug Allen. He's great! He respects the anthem and doesn't try to re-write it in his own image. A true pro's pro.

I don't dislike him. He's a good man and a fine singer. He just wouldn't be my anthem singer at a hockey game.


But is anyone really disputing the proposition that an owner shouldn't force hockey decisions on his GM if the goal is to produce the best team? My impression of this discussion is that many have said the owner is entitled to do what he wants with his team, while others have said essentially that he/she is not so entitled. Is anyone saying that owners weighing in on hockey decisions improves he on-ice product?

The rest of the discussion has revolved around a forensic discussion of children's tweets to speculate that/whether their dad did in fact meddle.

Not a fan of circumstantial evidence? Kid tweets that Dad likes Ehrhoff. Sabres sign Ehrhoff. And Terry later goes on the radio to say the signings were his decision, he wanted to do them. It's not a smoking gun, but pretty close.



#453 That Aud Smell

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 07:28 PM

But is anyone really disputing the proposition that an owner shouldn't force hockey decisions on his GM if the goal is to produce the best team? My impression of this discussion is that many have said the owner is entitled to do what he wants with his team, while others have said essentially that he/she is not so entitled. Is anyone saying that owners weighing in on hockey decisions improves he on-ice product?


I don't think people have been posting what you state above. People have been saying lots of other things. It has been an interesting discussion.

#454 dudacek

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 08:47 PM

How many of us could be Mirtle's perfect owner?

I know I am no Murray, but I have just enough hockey knowledge that I'm sure I would be driving him crazy grilling him about all the same ###### I grill the rest of you about on here. Stamkos is his decision, but damn rights he better be exploring that option with everything he has at his disposal and giving me a full, nuanced report as to why it is or is not a good thing for us.

I hope I am a good enough manager to know the line between my job and his, but also a good enough manager to know it is my business to know his business and hold him accountable for doing it well.

Not sure if that makes me a meddler, or responsible.

Edited by dudacek, 23 March 2016 - 08:48 PM.


#455 qwksndmonster

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:04 PM

If I owned a hockey team I would lay in bed and watch cartoons all day because money.



#456 Darryl Shannon's +/-

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:07 PM

Oversee, absolutely. I do not want or crave a powerless owner who just writes the checks. Terry can set the mission, hire people to run the team, fire those people and so forth. He plays a huge role. Macro stuff. I'd even argue that as owner he should have a special veto power on the really big issues. "We're not tanking." "We're not signing that criminal." "Sorry, we're not trading Jack Eichel." Those situations would be very limited.

 

Sorry, I'm having a tough time understanding this.  Signing Ehrhoff is meddling, yet deciding to tank, or not sign someone due to their personal makeup or not trading a player wouldn't be?

 

Personally, the organizational decision to go through with the tank is proof enough to me that Pegula isn't meddling.  It hurts you at the box office (yes, we sold out almost every seat but had to expand season ticket base to do so) and puts the onus on the scouting staff and GM to turn assets into success.  And agree or disagree with the method of tanking, at least it shows an organizational plan.  Beats the heck out of breaking even with Golisano. 



#457 PASabreFan

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 08:29 AM

Sorry, I'm having a tough time understanding this.  Signing Ehrhoff is meddling, yet deciding to tank, or not sign someone due to their personal makeup or not trading a player wouldn't be?

 

Personally, the organizational decision to go through with the tank is proof enough to me that Pegula isn't meddling.  It hurts you at the box office (yes, we sold out almost every seat but had to expand season ticket base to do so) and puts the onus on the scouting staff and GM to turn assets into success.  And agree or disagree with the method of tanking, at least it shows an organizational plan.  Beats the heck out of breaking even with Golisano. 

Very limited situations. Rare. If an owner doesn't want to put his fanbase through sheer hell, thinks tanking is immoral and isn't down for being historically bad for two seasons, I'd grant him the right to say no. The trade issue is probably the weakest part of that argument. Think more along the lines of Eichel becoming super-elite, our Lemieux or Gretzky. I wouldn't begrudge the owner veto power.

 

Actually, I suspect Terry did meddle to push the full tank through. I don't think Darcy was up for it, and that's why he's gone. I remember Darcy saying the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's decision. Is this one of the special meddling exceptions? I'd say no.

 

Re: the Golisano remark. I'm not talking about Terry here, but tanking is a great way for a cost-conscious owner to improve the bottom line while looking like he's trying to turn things around.



#458 Darryl Shannon's +/-

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 08:21 PM

Very limited situations. Rare. If an owner doesn't want to put his fanbase through sheer hell, thinks tanking is immoral and isn't down for being historically bad for two seasons, I'd grant him the right to say no. The trade issue is probably the weakest part of that argument. Think more along the lines of Eichel becoming super-elite, our Lemieux or Gretzky. I wouldn't begrudge the owner veto power.

 

Actually, I suspect Terry did meddle to push the full tank through. I don't think Darcy was up for it, and that's why he's gone. I remember Darcy saying the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's decision. Is this one of the special meddling exceptions? I'd say no.

 

Re: the Golisano remark. I'm not talking about Terry here, but tanking is a great way for a cost-conscious owner to improve the bottom line while looking like he's trying to turn things around.

 

Good points, I guess in all of the rush to tank, I never really thought about who actually made the overall decision.  For most GM's, if you pitch that method you probably have a pink slip in 1-3 years so it would go against their interest for self preservation.  So yeah, odds are this was probably the mission driven by Pegula.  Makes me wonder about Toronto with all the spending they've done in their front office, in 2-3 years will we see something totally different there if they are stagnant?

 

The economics of a tank also interest me - Buffalo is probably the worst place to do it in considering the building has been mostly full, but if you pull this stunt in Miami or Carolina odds are you would take a real hit at the box office.  If your salary is 20-30M under the cap though, maybe that is good business?  For years the Bills did this with "cash to cap" but I think the NFL is a different animal with revenue sharing. 



#459 That Aud Smell

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 08:06 AM

No apologies - this is the thread to resurrect when I see interesting feedback on the matter of "meddling."

 

Whither X, btw? I trust he'll return when hockey does.

 

I was linked to a write-up that Friedman (sp?) did on the blockbuster day from late June (Hall-Larsson/Suban-Weber/Stamkos), and there was this tidbit about 2/3 the way through:

 

If someone had told him the 2016-17 NHL season would begin without Seth Jones and Weber on the Nashville roster, what would Poile have said?

“Nothing is impossible, but how would that happen?” he laughed.

What did ownership say when you told them?

“I really don’t think I should get into that,” Poile replied. “But you could say there was shock.”

http://www.sportsnet...k-hockey-world/


There'd been a lot of talk about how major roster moves would ALWAYS be cleared ahead of time with ownership (because of course they must be). But that quote seems to suggest that maybe Poile made the move and then advised ownership. (Who are the NSH owners, btw?)


Cripes. I forgot it was Brawndo who linked me to it:

 

 

Interesting read about the events from June 29th.

http://www.sportsnet...k-hockey-world/

 


#460 Hank

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 08:10 AM

Both trades made the Preds better long term and short term. I think Poile is grossly underrated simply because he's in Nashville.

#461 That Aud Smell

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:30 PM

I'm glad this thread stays open, just so I can append to it now and then with stuff I see out there.

 

There's this from Drew Magary's most recent funbag:

 

Aside from watching their own teams, how much football does your average NFL owner actually watch? I think aside from their own team’s games and maybe a few other games that have playoff implications, not much at all. It explains why someone like Snyder is so terrible at football and always signs players way past their prime.

 

Oh, I think the number of NFL owners who actively enjoy the spot of football is less than half. I bet most of them HATE football. Like, I bet Dean Spanos actively resents having to sit in a luxury booth for three hours every Sunday when he could be at the Beverly Wilshire hobnobbing with actors and talking up five-stars escorts instead. These people only care about football as a delivery device for money and power. Only a handful of them, like the Double J, are invested in the sport itself.

 

On a certain level, that’s actually fine. You’ve seen what happens when an owner actually pays attention to these games. I’d rather have an owner like Paul Allen—who clearly gives no ###### about the sport—than some shitheel like Danny Snyder pretending to be Mr. Football and meddling in everything just to prove something to his dead daddy. No thank you.

 

http://deadspin.com/...cial-1818542168


Edited by That Aud Smell, 19 September 2017 - 02:31 PM.


#462 WildCard

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:36 PM

I'd rather be talking up 5-star escorts than almost anything else I can imagine



#463 Doohickie

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:41 PM

I'd rather be talking up 5-star escorts than almost anything else I can imagine

 

Reading this in isolation, it seems kind of creepy weird.

 

Going back a post to see what triggered it doesn't really improve things.

 

 

 

 

 

:P



#464 WildCard

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:41 PM

Reading this in isolation, it seems kind of creepy weird.

 

Going back a post to see what triggered it doesn't really improve things.

 

 

 

 

 

:P

I mean I can replace 'talking' if you really want



#465 Doohickie

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:46 PM

:D



#466 MattPie

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:39 PM

I'd rather be talking up 5-star escorts than almost anything else I can imagine

 

"I bet you didn't know that the 2017 Ford Escort gets an overall 5-star rating from the NHTSA, did you? It's a seriously great car." You're right, wildcard, it *is* fun talking up 5-star escorts.



#467 Doohickie

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 08:18 PM

"I bet you didn't know that the 2017 Ford Escort gets an overall 5-star rating from the NHTSA, did you? It's a seriously great car." You're right, wildcard, it *is* fun talking up 5-star escorts.

 

y7Z0L.jpg



#468 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:22 AM

I miss PA.

 

I don't think he is coming back this time.



#469 WildCard

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:25 AM

I miss PA.

 

I don't think he is coming back this time.

Season hasn't started yet. I hope he does, seeing as this is the first season in what? 4 years? where we can actually discuss hockey 



#470 hsif

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:34 AM

Posted Yesterday, 04:39 PM

WildCard, on 19 Sept 2017 - 3:36 PM, said:snapback.png

I'd rather be talking up 5-star escorts than almost anything else I can imagine

 

"I bet you didn't know that the 2017 Ford Escort gets an overall 5-star rating from the NHTSA, did you? It's a seriously great car." You're right, wildcard, it *is* fun talking up 5-star escorts.

 

 

 

This thread is like a box of chocolates......... you just never know.