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Jack Eichel Contract Extension: Talks Occuring


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#41 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:58 PM

He's not McDavid. But if McDavid is $13+ you don't think Jack is worth $9, $9.5?


If Kane is worth $10.5 and Crosby is worth $8.7, is Jack worth $9.5?
If Tarasenko is worth $7.5 and Gaudreau $6.75 and Barkov $5.9, is Jack worth $9.5?

I think there is a real willingness to pay him as the player we want him to be, rather than who he is, or what the market rate is.
$9.5 ties him with Malkin for the fifth-highest paid player in the league.
Really, what's he done to deserve that?

#42 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:58 PM

So everyone is comfortable with the idea that (minus McDavid) Jack is the best player to come along this decade?
And that he will be among the league's five best players over the duration of his contract?


That's what you're paying him as.
$8-$10 million a year over four RFA years?
To gain three UFA years at what may not be a discount if he peaks as a Stamkos level player?


No and no. But I also disagree with the gist of your argument. If Jack signs for $9M, even with a relatively flat cap increase of $1M for 2018-19, he'd only be at 11.8% of the cap. One of your favorite comparisons, Tarasenko, was at 10.3% of the cap. So Jack would be more, but not insanely so. Crosby was at 14.5%, Malkin at 14.8%, Ovechkin at 16.8%. How about this one: Phil Kessel at 12.4%.

I'm hoping to get Jack at $8M or so, that would be 10.5% of a $76M cap. Arguably below his current value, to say nothing of future value.

#43 That Aud Smell

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:59 PM

He's not McDavid. But if McDavid is $13+ you don't think Jack is worth $9, $9.5?

 

But if they're not comparable, they're not comparable.

 

I won't be shocked if Eichel's 8-year deal averages in excess of $9M. I am still hoping that it slides in under $9M, though. Maybe that's foolish.



#44 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:00 PM

If Kane is worth $10.5 and Crosby is worth $8.7, is Jack worth $9.5?
If Tarasenko is worth $7.5 and Gaudreau $6.75 and Barkov $5.9, is Jack worth $9.5?

I think there is a real willingness to pay him as the player we want him to be, rather than who he is, or what the market rate is.
$9.5 ties him with Malkin for the fifth-highest paid player in the league.
Really, what's he done to deserve that?


Using raw dollars to judge value is apples to oranges. Percentage of the cap is the only way to go.

#45 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:01 PM

$8 million for eight years would make him the highest paid of his peers, by a good margin.
I think that's where he should be.

Using raw dollars to judge value is apples to oranges. Percentage of the cap is the only way to go.

Good argument. Has the cap really gone up that much since the Tarasenko deal?
Seems like it is flattening.

Edited by dudacek, 28 June 2017 - 04:02 PM.


#46 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:02 PM

$8 million for eight years would make him the highest paid of his peers, by a good margin.
I think that's where he should be.

Good argument.

I think you missed my previous post.

Edited by TrueBlueGED, 28 June 2017 - 04:05 PM.


#47 Derrico

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:03 PM

If Kane is worth $10.5 and Crosby is worth $8.7, is Jack worth $9.5?
If Tarasenko is worth $7.5 and Gaudreau $6.75 and Barkov $5.9, is Jack worth $9.5?

I think there is a real willingness to pay him as the player we want him to be, rather than who he is, or what the market rate is.
$9.5 ties him with Malkin for the fifth-highest paid player in the league.
Really, what's he done to deserve that?


When were these deals signed? I'm not going to figure out what I should pay for a house based on the price of what the neighbour sold for 4 years ago.

#48 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:03 PM

I think you missed my precious post.


Yes I did. and yes, it was precious.

#49 Derrico

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:04 PM

No and no. But I also disagree with the gist of your argument. If Jack signs for $9M, even with a relatively flat cap increase of $1M for 2018-19, he'd only be at 11.8% of the cap. One of your favorite comparisons, Tarasenko, was at 10.3% of the cap. So Jack would be more, but not insanely so. Crosby was at 14.5%, Malkin at 14.8%, Ovechkin at 16.8%. How about this one: Phil Kessel at 12.4%.

I'm hoping to get Jack at $8M or so, that would be 10.5% of a $76M cap. Arguably below his current value, to say nothing of future value.

This. Was just about to start digging into percentage of cap hit per deal.

For the record there are few guys on the league I would rather have than jack. Maybe I'm biased but outside of Connor, maybe Austin and sid I'd rather jack.

Edited by Derrico, 28 June 2017 - 04:06 PM.


#50 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:05 PM

When were these deals signed? I'm not going to figure out what I should pay for a house based on the price of what the neighbour sold for 4 years ago.


Two years ago for Tarasenko. Last year for the other two.

#51 Derrico

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:06 PM

Two years ago for Tarasenko. Last year for the other two.

I know rfa years matter but jack is better than tarasenko.

He's better than the other two as well. Surprised how cheaply Florida got barkov.

Edited by Derrico, 28 June 2017 - 04:07 PM.


#52 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:06 PM

Yes I did. and yes, it was precious.


:lol:

I'd say "DAMN PHONE" but it was a pretty awesome typo.

#53 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:08 PM

Jack is better than all of them, IMO, and I'm willing to pay him more.
But he certainly hasn't proven he is $2-3 million better.

#54 Derrico

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:10 PM

Jack is better than all of them, IMO, and I'm willing to pay him more.
But he certainly hasn't proven he is $2-3 million better.


If tarasenko got $7.5 you don't think Jack is worth $2 mil more?

#55 pi2000

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:14 PM

Players' contracts should actually be proportional to their +/-. Say the best + player in the league falls in at +40. He should get the $10 mil deal, so 1 plus should be worth about $250,000. 

Therefore Jack actually owes the Sabres $3.25 mil next season. 

 

I misunderestimated you.


Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate him.

 

1 year, $1.5M. You know... a prove-it deal.

 

Hourly pay would be a great motivator.



#56 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:17 PM

If tarasenko got $7.5 you don't think Jack is worth $2 mil more?


Maybe. But so far Tarasenko has produced more.
This is what I mean by wanting to pay Jack based on what you want him to be.

#57 Randall Flagg

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:20 PM

This comment may not fly well, but when Jack is a $9 million player, I want to see less of those disengaged periods, a lot less. 

I don't mean it as an insult, or as singling him out. His peers do it too. It's a challenge.



#58 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:24 PM

This comment may not fly well, but when Jack is a $9 million player, I want to see less of those disengaged periods, a lot less.
I don't mean it as an insult, or as singling him out. His peers do it too. It's a challenge.

It's the truth. The guys making $9 million have won Stanley Cups, or at least gone to the finals.
Jack hasn't played a playoff game or scored 60 points.

Edited by dudacek, 28 June 2017 - 04:24 PM.


#59 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:26 PM

It's the truth. The guys making $9 million have won Stanley Cups, or at least gone to the finals.
Jack hasn't played a playoff game or scored 60 points.


If I throw an empty beer bottle into my monitor tonight, it's your fault. This is Mike Harrington-esque argumentation.

#60 Derrico

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:28 PM

Maybe. But so far Tarasenko has produced more.
This is what I mean by wanting to pay Jack based on what you want him to be.


Fair but he had a better ppg then tarasenko last season coming off a devastating injury. He's a better player today and 4 years younger. He just has t been in the league long enough to put up those points. I'd rather a guy get paid on potential (especially on a guy with huge hype that hasn't disappointed) than so many guys who are just paid for past production.

If I throw an empty beer bottle into my monitor tonight, it's your fault. This is Mike Harrington-esque argumentation.


LOL. Good to see us back on the same mindset again. I missed ya blue lol.

#61 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:28 PM

This comment may not fly well, but when Jack is a $9 million player, I want to see less of those disengaged periods, a lot less.

I don't mean it as an insult, or as singling him out. His peers do it too. It's a challenge.


I don't think too many are going to argue with this. I think a coach he doesn't hate and the captaincy* will help this along.

*I officially want to move out the old leadership core. Though I think Gionta can still play, he was captain while that locker room was a disaster.

#62 Thorny

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:29 PM

Maybe. But so far Tarasenko has produced more.
This is what I mean by wanting to pay Jack based on what you want him to be.


I'd rather pay for likely achieved future performance than unlikely to be replicated past performance. See: Toews, Blackhawks.

#63 Randall Flagg

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:30 PM

If I throw an empty beer bottle into my monitor tonight, it's your fault. This is Mike Harrington-esque argumentation.

I think duda wants to give him that money, but is agreeing with my increased scrutiny/expectations.



#64 qwksndmonster

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:32 PM

It's the truth. The guys making $9 million have won Stanley Cups, or at least gone to the finals.
Jack hasn't played a playoff game or scored 60 points.

...

Is this really dudacek?

I think duda wants to give him that money, but is agreeing with my increased scrutiny/expectations.

I mean, I don't think anyone isn't expecting Jack to grow up. He's still a kid.

#65 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:32 PM

I think duda wants to give him that money, but is agreeing with my increased scrutiny/expectations.


I'm talking about the points and playoffs thing. It reeked of Harrington's "Eichel needs to score more goals, his assists don't count enough" trope from when Eichel had like 2 goals and 13 assists over 15 games.

#66 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:34 PM

If I throw an empty beer bottle into my monitor tonight, it's your fault. This is Mike Harrington-esque argumentation.


Top 10 contracts: Subban, Malkin, Kane, Kopitar, Toews, Perry, Stamkos, Crosby and Lundqvist. Only exception is Ovechkin.
You might not agree with the argument, but NHL GMs do.

And I put up with a lot from you, but the Harrington card?
I feel like I just took a Shea Weber blast to the gap in my shin pad.

#67 Scottysabres

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:38 PM

I don't see him signing a long term deal for under 10. He knows what he's worth to this team.


I think somewhere between 9/9.5 and 11 mil for 8 years is what we'll see. And worth every penny.

#68 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:40 PM

Top 10 contracts: Subban, Malkin, Kane, Kopitar, Toews, Perry, Stamkos, Crosby and Lundqvist. Only exception is Ovechkin.
You might not agree with the argument, but NHL GMs do.

And I put up with a lot from you, but the Harrington card?
I feel like I just took a Shea Weber blast to the gap in my shin pad.

I'm sorry, you're right, that was over the top. But there's nothing that makes my blood burn more than judging individuals by team metrics, especially in freaking hockey.

Edit: I'm also not entirely sure GMs look at raw dollars. Keep in mind, they always talk about contracts becoming a better value as the cap increases--at the very least, they're implicitly aware of contracts relative to the cap ceiling.

Edited by TrueBlueGED, 28 June 2017 - 04:42 PM.


#69 Thorny

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:42 PM

I'm sorry, you're right, that was over the top. But there's nothing that makes my blood burn more than judging individuals by team metrics, especially in freaking hockey.


Wait, so Toews isn't as good as Crosby and Malkin, even though he has 3 cups?

YOU are the drunk, around these parts.

#70 Taro T

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 05:45 PM

$68 over 8 years. If the Boston is strong in this one, fine give him $8.625/yr for 8. :P

My best guess is the $8.5/x8. Sets him for life. Makes him highest paid player on the team & leaves cap room to keep very talented 2nd bananas on the team. This kid seems to want to win. (Losing focus at the end of a lost year under a Goober not being held against a kid that can't legally drink in this state.) Taking a slight haircut to keep a strong team could happen (at least in dreams). ;)

#71 WildCard

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:38 PM

Top 10 contracts: Subban, Malkin, Kane, Kopitar, Toews, Perry, Stamkos, Crosby and Lundqvist. Only exception is Ovechkin.
You might not agree with the argument, but NHL GMs do.

And I put up with a lot from you, but the Harrington card?
I feel like I just took a Shea Weber blast to the gap in my shin pad.

To be fair 1/2 of those players have never won a Cup; Perry did but as a throw in rookie on a much better team.

 

I'd also argue it's very evident that those aren't the best 10 players in the league. At the time of their contracts they were, maybe, but for at least 1/2 of them, it had nothing to do with winning 


Edited by WildCard, 28 June 2017 - 10:40 PM.


#72 Huckleberry

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:49 PM

seems you guys are all talking long term deals, He'll go for a bridge deal or we overpay for a longterm deal.

 

but I can't see him getting more than 8x8 mill.  And then we are paying for what we think he might become.

bridge deal is it.



#73 dudacek

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:26 PM

To be fair 1/2 of those players have never won a Cup; Perry did but as a throw in rookie on a much better team.

 

I'd also argue it's very evident that those aren't the best 10 players in the league. At the time of their contracts they were, maybe, but for at least 1/2 of them, it had nothing to do with winning 

 

Five of them signed those deals after a cup, not counting Perry, who technically did, and has played 114 playoff games and been to the final four multiple times.

Subban, Lundqvist, and Stamkos have all been to the finals on top of their regular season success. They have all had success in the playoffs and the regular season before signing those deals. Ovie, is the exception, but has been the best goal scorer in hockey, for a decade now.

 

I'm not saying what should be, I'm saying what is: they have earned their big tickets performing where is mattered most.


Edited by dudacek, 28 June 2017 - 11:29 PM.


#74 nucci

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 07:44 AM

seems you guys are all talking long term deals, He'll go for a bridge deal or we overpay for a longterm deal.

 

but I can't see him getting more than 8x8 mill.  And then we are paying for what we think he might become.

bridge deal is it.

He's not going to sign a "bridge" deal. This is his chance for a big payday and he'll get it



#75 That Aud Smell

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:03 AM

If the Sabres bridge-deal Eichel, the only poster here who will have a bigger tantrum than me is ... who? Blue? It'll be a helluva competition, that's for sure.



#76 Derrico

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:06 AM

If the Sabres bridge-deal Eichel, the only poster here who will have a bigger tantrum than me is ... who? Blue? It'll be a helluva competition, that's for sure.

I may have a mental breakdown.  I was live and die with every Sabres game the tank year.  If there's any chance we lose him after like 5 years then I may....I donno, I'll be pretty upset.



#77 WildCard

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:08 AM

Five of them signed those deals after a cup, not counting Perry, who technically did, and has played 114 playoff games and been to the final four multiple times.

Subban, Lundqvist, and Stamkos have all been to the finals on top of their regular season success. They have all had success in the playoffs and the regular season before signing those deals. Ovie, is the exception, but has been the best goal scorer in hockey, for a decade now.

 

I'm not saying what should be, I'm saying what is: they have earned their big tickets performing where is mattered most.

Alright this is the same damn thing I said just the negation of it! :lol: :lol: 



#78 ShadowLiger

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:00 AM

If the Sabres bridge-deal Eichel, the only poster here who will have a bigger tantrum than me is ... who? Blue? It'll be a helluva competition, that's for sure.

giphy.gif



#79 Doohickie

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:18 AM

You want to give $5.5 million to a minus player? Where's that pic of the square jawed Schwarzenegger look alike that Doohickie usually posts? I am disappoint.
 
Edit: Found it


So I have a reputation now?



#80 That Aud Smell

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:47 AM

giphy.gif

 

Haha - nice.