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#41 Drunkard

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:35 AM

This is not a mediocre draft. This is a misconception because the top pick in this draft is not on the level of Matthews, Laine, Eichel, McClavicle

 

So would you say it's a good draft then? Better than 2013, 2014, 2015, or 2016? If not, you're just arguing semantics. Mediocre isn't bad, it's average.



#42 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:40 AM

We're 2 pages in and nobody has made the obligatory "Who is Cal Peterson?" joke yet. We're slipping, Sabrespace.



#43 nfreeman

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:44 AM

I don't think Peterson is going to sign with the Sabres, and I don't think Vegas would give the Sabres anything for Lehner -- certainly not a good defenseman.



#44 Derrico

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:46 AM

I think 95 percent chance he's gone. If Vegas takes ullmark then odds would increase substantially he signs with us. If we lose ullmark and Petersen in one offseason....not good. Not good at all.

Edited by Derrico, 01 June 2017 - 09:46 AM.


#45 jsb

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 09:54 AM

It appears that Jack may not be the ambassador the Sabres need

Unless you're from the area, Buffalo's reputation is pretty darn poor

Sabres recent history is pretty darn poor also

An educated hockey player is not going to sign here unless you overpay

He's going to get an ELC so his dream team or city has the edge in this 

He is gone although I hope I'm wrong, even if he's not as good as advertised by some, he'd be an improvement in depth that this team sorely needs.



#46 Sabills182

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:10 AM

It appears that Jack may not be the ambassador the Sabres need
Unless you're from the area, Buffalo's reputation is pretty darn poor
Sabres recent history is pretty darn poor also
An educated hockey player is not going to sign here unless you overpay
He's going to get an ELC so his dream team or city has the edge in this
He is gone although I hope I'm wrong, even if he's not as good as advertised by some, he'd be an improvement in depth that this team sorely needs.


Yea, I don't think it looks good for him signing with us either. We need to start winning to recruit/keep these guys. Winning can cure a lot

#47 ShadowLiger

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:26 AM

So would you say it's a good draft then? Better than 2013, 2014, 2015, or 2016? If not, you're just arguing semantics. Mediocre isn't bad, it's average.

better then 2014, maybe a step below 2013 but similar. More depth I think then 2016

It appears that Jack may not be the ambassador the Sabres need
Unless you're from the area, Buffalo's reputation is pretty darn poor
Sabres recent history is pretty darn poor also
An educated hockey player is not going to sign here unless you overpay
He's going to get an ELC so his dream team or city has the edge in this
He is gone although I hope I'm wrong, even if he's not as good as advertised by some, he'd be an improvement in depth that this team sorely needs.

Because Jack told him Buffalo is awesome but he needs to do what he thinks is best?

Why would an educated player not sign for Buffalo? Is Okposo uneducated? Did we overpay for him? This argument doesn't hold water at all.

Yea, I don't think it looks good for him signing with us either. We need to start winning to recruit/keep these guys. Winning can cure a lot

We needed to have a NHL spot for him and we don't. Maybe he thinks he's ready and the rest is just bs woe is Buffalo crap.

#48 pi2000

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:32 AM

Where is this analysis coming from PI, your own personal opinion I take it? He's a better prospect coming out of college than Ryan Miller, and Miller turned out okay, I would say.

 

Miller put up some excellent numbers his final two seasons at MSU:

 

GAA: 1.23 / 1.77

SV%: 0.950 / 0.936

 

 

Let's compare that Petersen:

 

GAA: 2.20 / 2.21

SV%: 0.927 / 0.926

 

 

You want to compare someone to Miller?   Try Connor Hellebuyck.  

 

His final two years at UMass-Lowell:

 

GAA: 1.37 / 1.79

SV%: 0.952 / 0.941

 

 

Petersen just isn't at that same level IMO.



#49 ShadowLiger

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:36 AM

I agree with you Pi



#50 Doohickie

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

The reputation of the City of Buffalo has improved quite a bit lately, including to people from outside the area.  It's generally regarded as the latest Rust Belt Renaissance city.  It's not New York City, but then again, not everyone wants that.

 

As for the Sabres, they're coming out of a historically bad period of hockey with a decent stock of talented players.  A young player could be discouraged by that because the Sabres aren't good (yet)/don't have a history of winning, or he may see an opportunity to jump into the middle of the depth chart with an excellent chance to get to the NHL quickly, perhaps even as a starter, or how may see the challenge of joining a program intent on building for the future.

 

So you can convince yourself that this is exactly where he wants to be, or exactly where he doesn't want to be, but only he knows.  Even if he intends to sign with the Sabres, it would be smart on his part to wait and see who the coach turns out to be and how the dust settles after the expansion draft to see what the organization looks like and how he fits into the depth chart.



#51 pi2000

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:43 AM

The reputation of the City of Buffalo has improved quite a bit lately, including to people from outside the area.  It's generally regarded as the latest Rust Belt Renaissance city.  It's not New York City, but then again, not everyone wants that.

 

As for the Sabres, they're coming out of a historically bad period of hockey with a decent stock of talented players.  A young player could be discouraged by that because the Sabres aren't good (yet)/don't have a history of winning, or he may see an opportunity to jump into the middle of the depth chart with an excellent chance to get to the NHL quickly, perhaps even as a starter, or how may see the challenge of joining a program intent on building for the future.

 

So you can convince yourself that this is exactly where he wants to be, or exactly where he doesn't want to be, but only he knows.  Even if he intends to sign with the Sabres, it would be smart on his part to wait and see who the coach turns out to be and how the dust settles after the expansion draft to see what the organization looks like and how he fits into the depth chart.

 

I miss the days when prospects were just that.... prospects.   When guys had to earn their shot at the show.... be realistic about their abilities and develop at the AHL level rather than perusing NHL rosters to find where they might have the best chance to immediately play in the NHL.     BUF took a chance on the kid by drafting him, and developing him at dev camps, giving him nutrition, strength and conditioning guidance throughout his college career.   And he returns the favor by choosing to become a FA.... what a douche.   I blame agents for putting that thought in their head that they're ready for the NHL.



#52 French Collection

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 10:47 AM

I miss the days when prospects were just that.... prospects.   When guys had to earn their shot at the show.... be realistic about their abilities and develop at the AHL level rather than perusing NHL rosters to find where they might have the best chance to immediately play in the NHL.     BUF took a chance on the kid by drafting him, and developing him at dev camps, giving him nutrition, strength and conditioning guidance throughout his college career.   And he returns the favor by choosing to become a FA.... what a douche.   I blame agents for putting that thought in their head that they're ready for the NHL.


Everyone realizes it's a business, but it seems any sense of loyalty has gone out the window.

#53 shrader

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:02 AM

You're 30 days away from being able to shop around a bit and really figure out what you think would be the best fit.  Maybe that best fit does wind up being the team that drafted you*, but there's only one way to find out.  You'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.

 

 

*I'm not holding my breath on that one.



#54 GoPre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:15 AM

You're 30 days away from being able to shop around a bit and really figure out what you think would be the best fit.  Maybe that best fit does wind up being the team that drafted you*, but there's only one way to find out.  You'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.

 

 

*I'm not holding my breath on that one.

 

Nailed it    :thumbsup:



#55 jsb

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:32 AM

Because Jack told him Buffalo is awesome but he needs to do what he thinks is best?

Why would an educated player not sign for Buffalo? Is Okposo uneducated? Did we overpay for him? This argument doesn't hold water at all.
 

Well that didn't work with J.Vesey and apparently not with Cal P.

 

Let's see, you have a degree and you have your choice of your dream team, NY, Chicago, LA, Boston or Buffalo??? Who wins everything being equal. As for Okposo, they signed Ladd for approximately 2M less per year. Buffalo overpaid and I like Kyle and hope he's ok.



#56 d4rksabre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:50 AM

You're 30 days away from being able to shop around a bit and really figure out what you think would be the best fit. Maybe that best fit does wind up being the team that drafted you*, but there's only one way to find out. You'd be crazy not to take advantage of that.


*I'm not holding my breath on that one.


Yuuuup.

#57 PotentPowerPlay22

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 11:59 AM

Hopefully Jack is a better salesman than he was with Vesey
http://buffalonews.c...n-sabres-clock/

I am afraid this will end exactly like Vesey. Petersen holds all the cards. Why wouldn't he give himself the choice of signing with any team rather than just one team?



#58 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:11 PM

Well that didn't work with J.Vesey and apparently not with Cal P.

Let's see, you have a degree and you have your choice of your dream team, NY, Chicago, LA, Boston or Buffalo??? Who wins everything being equal. As for Okposo, they signed Ladd for approximately 2M less per year. Buffalo overpaid and I like Kyle and hope he's ok.


"Approximately $2M" = "exactly $500k"

The ultimate in Hammy math :P

https://capfriendly....ers/andrew-ladd

https://capfriendly....ers/kyle-okposo

I'm not a fan of Okposo for 7 years, but there is nothing about his cap hit that's an overpay right now.

#59 Thorny

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:12 PM

It probably serves a team better to take that late round stab at a college guy over a CHL guy.  You control the player for 4 years, giving you more time to figure out whether or not they're worth anything.  Compare that to having to make your mind up after two years when the player is still a teenager, very early in their development curve.  I think that was a big part of Murray's approach to the draft.  There was a good number of USHL/NCAA and europeans taken with the later picks.


I'd be ok with the strategy if they simply implemented the same rule that exists for CHL players: that if they go unsigned they have to re-enter the draft. I get why a GM may lean towards a College guy with a later round pick, owing to the 4 years thing you outlined, but it seems a little risky because if you DO end up hitting on a guy, they can just go to FA if they are a later bloomer.

#60 mustacheofgod

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:15 PM

I am afraid this will end exactly like Vesey. Petersen holds all the cards. Why wouldn't he give himself the choice of signing with any team rather than just one team?

 

If this ends up exactly like the Vesey situation then Peterson can ###### right off and we'll enjoy our 16th seed playoff run to the finals.



#61 Thorny

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:19 PM

I don't think anyone (or most) are blaming Petersen for this, though some undoubtedly will. But he's just taking advantage of the system in place. The problem is the system. It's faulty and needs to be fixed.

Edited by Thorny, 01 June 2017 - 12:27 PM.


#62 ShadowLiger

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:21 PM

Well that didn't work with J.Vesey and apparently not with Cal P.

Let's see, you have a degree and you have your choice of your dream team, NY, Chicago, LA, Boston or Buffalo??? Who wins everything being equal. As for Okposo, they signed Ladd for approximately 2M less per year. Buffalo overpaid and I like Kyle and hope he's ok.

Are you arguing Ladd was equivalent to Okposo last season?

#63 Eleven

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:22 PM

I don't think anyone (or most) are blaming Peterson for this, though some undoubtedly will. But he's just taking advantage of the system in place. The problem is the system. It's faulty and needs to be fixed.

 

Exactly.  I think it's there to provide an incentive for Americans to go through the NCAA rather than play junior in the CHL, but it's become too much of a problem.  Seriously, what if Eichel had gone this route?!



#64 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:22 PM

I can't take it anymore: it's Petersen. E N! If we're going to bitch about how much losing him would suck, or pencil him in as our Cup winning goalie, or cast aspersions on his character, we could at least spell his name right :P

#65 Thorny

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:26 PM

Exactly.  I think it's there to provide an incentive for Americans to go through the NCAA rather than play junior in the CHL, but it's become too much of a problem.  Seriously, what if Eichel had gone this route?!


It would be awfully risky for a player of his caliber to wait it out that long, but one day it'll happen. I fear there won't be a considered rule change until that happens.

I can't take it anymore: it's Petersen. E N! If we're going to bitch about how much losing him would suck, or pencil him in as our Cup winning goalie, or cast aspersions on his character, we could at least spell his name right :P


Oops, my bad.

#66 nfreeman

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:27 PM

"Approximately $2M" = "exactly $500k"

The ultimate in Hammy math :P

https://capfriendly....ers/andrew-ladd

https://capfriendly....ers/kyle-okposo
 

 

THAT just happened.

 

 

I don't think anyone (or most) are blaming Peterson for this, though some undoubtedly will. But he's just taking advantage of the system in place. The problem is the system. It's faulty and needs to be fixed.

 

Completely agree.

 

 

I can't take it anymore: it's Petersen. E N! If we're going to bitch about how much losing him would suck, or pencil him in as our Cup winning goalie, or cast aspersions on his character, we could at least spell his name right :P

 

You're playing a dangerous game here, my friend.



#67 shrader

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:36 PM

I'd be ok with the strategy if they simply implemented the same rule that exists for CHL players: that if they go unsigned they have to re-enter the draft. I get why a GM may lean towards a College guy with a later round pick, owing to the 4 years thing you outlined, but it seems a little risky because if you DO end up hitting on a guy, they can just go to FA if they are a later bloomer.

 

Every single person on the face of the earth is no longer eligible for the NHL draft once they reach the age of 21.  What you're suggesting is a punishment to college players, forcing them to go back into the draft while other people their age are free agents.  Yes, CHL players do have to re-enter the draft after 2 years.  But if they remain unsigned after the four years, they are in the same exact boat as the college player, an unrestricted free agent.  If anything, the college kid already has his options limited and now you are suggesting further limiting those.  It will never fly and is completely unfair to the player.

 

What we are complaining about here is such a rarity.  Sure we've seen more guys go this route recently (a collectively bargained route, by the way), but for every one of them, there are probably at least 15 college guys who do sign with the team who drafted them.  Obviously I'm pulling that number out of my ass, but I hope the point is clear, so many more go the more traditional route.


It would be awfully risky for a player of his caliber to wait it out that long, but one day it'll happen. I fear there won't be a considered rule change until that happens.


Oops, my bad.

 

If a player of Eichel's status wants to go that route and throw away at least $15 million in salary and countless other dollars made from endorsements, more power to him.



#68 Thorny

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

Every single person on the face of the earth is no longer eligible for the NHL draft once they reach the age of 21.  What you're suggesting is a punishment to college players, forcing them to go back into the draft while other people their age are free agents.  Yes, CHL players do have to re-enter the draft after 2 years.  But if they remain unsigned after the four years, they are in the same exact boat as the college player, an unrestricted free agent.  If anything, the college kid already has his options limited and now you are suggesting further limiting those.  It will never fly and is completely unfair to the player.
 
What we are complaining about here is such a rarity.  Sure we've seen more guys go this route recently (a collectively bargained route, by the way), but for every one of them, there are probably at least 15 college guys who do sign with the team who drafted them.  Obviously I'm pulling that number out of my ass, but I hope the point is clear, so many more go the more traditional route.
 
If a player of Eichel's status wants to go that route and throw away at least $15 million in salary and countless other dollars made from endorsements, more power to him.


Food for thought.

#69 ShadowLiger

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:01 PM

As for Okposo, they signed Ladd for approximately 2M less per year. Buffalo overpaid and I like Kyle and hope he's ok.

Never mind I will do it for you.

 

Ladd: 23g, 8a in 78games. 0.397ppg

 

Okposo: 19g, 26a, 65 games. 0.692ppg

 

Yea, I will take Okposo's extra 500k over that dip in production. Buffalo did not overpay, but the Islanders most assuredly did. Try again. 



#70 dudacek

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:03 PM

It probably serves a team better to take that late round stab at a college guy over a CHL guy. You control the player for 4 years, giving you more time to figure out whether or not they're worth anything. Compare that to having to make your mind up after two years when the player is still a teenager, very early in their development curve. I think that was a big part of Murray's approach to the draft. There was a good number of USHL/NCAA and europeans taken with the later picks.


I think the braintrust was also very conscious of the ridiculous number of draft picks we had - really too many to accommodate in the organization - and saw Europe and College as a way to spread the prospects out a bit. (And trading packages away, but that's another debate.)

Edited by dudacek, 01 June 2017 - 01:06 PM.


#71 dudacek

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:17 PM

Is the ridiculous meme of "nobody ever wants to come to Buffalo" still alive?

We may have overpaid for Moulson and Gionta, but they came here because of the community and the organization.
Gorges waived his no-trade clause. O'Reilly signed instead of going to free agency. Okposo was the biggest free agent in his class.

CJ Smith, Casey Nelson, Evan Rodrigues, Viktor Antipin... these guys had other options, they came here.

If you honestly compare our track record to the rest of the league in the past few years, we are at least competitive.

#72 Radar

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:23 PM

Is the ridiculous meme of "nobody ever wants to come to Buffalo" still alive?
We may have overpaid for Moulson and Gionta, but they came here because of the community and the organization.
Gorges waived his no-trade clause. O'Reilly signed instead of going to free agency. Okposo was the biggest free agent in his class.
CJ Smith, Casey Nelson, Evan Rodrigues, Viktor Antipin... these guys had other options, they came here.
If you honestly compare our track record to the rest of the league in the past few years, we are at least competitive.

It's just Buffalo paranoia. The refs are against us, the league is against us, nobody likes us I'm going to eat some worms!

#73 GoPre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:31 PM

How many pages did the Vesey thread have?  Might want to get an over/under going.  



#74 jsb

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:33 PM

Never mind I will do it for you.

 

Ladd: 23g, 8a in 78games. 0.397ppg

 

Okposo: 19g, 26a, 65 games. 0.692ppg

 

Yea, I will take Okposo's extra 500k over that dip in production. Buffalo did not overpay, but the Islanders most assuredly did. Try again. 

My point being that Okposo signed for who offered him the most cash, it wasn't the allure of downtown Buffalo. Bad analogy on Ladd, that's a horrible contract but I made the mistake of bad remembering, I thought he got 4M annually. 

Agree totally that the system is bad to allow this. You should play for who drafted you but what else do you expect from the NHL. 



#75 ShadowLiger

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:36 PM

My point being that Okposo signed for who offered him the most cash, it wasn't the allure of downtown Buffalo. Bad analogy on Ladd, that's a horrible contract but I made the mistake of bad remembering, I thought he got 4M annually. 

Agree totally that the system is bad to allow this. You should play for who drafted you but what else do you expect from the NHL. 

How do we know we offered Okposo the most money? 



#76 GoPre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:38 PM

In the NFL, if a player does not want to sign w/ a team that drafted them, aren't they allowed to sit out 1 season and enter the next draft?



#77 Eleven

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:39 PM

In the NFL, if a player does not want to sign w/ a team that drafted them, aren't they allowed to sit out 1 season and enter the next draft?

 

Yep.



#78 d4rksabre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:42 PM

How do we know we offered Okposo the most money? 

Didn't we know for a fact that we didn't offer Okposo the most money? Or am I misremembering? 



#79 GoPre

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:48 PM

Yep.

 

 

NHL should go that route.  Prevents a player from gaining control.  If Petersen didn't want to come to Buffalo, he could enter next years draft.  The Sabres, after being turned down by Petersen, than have an opportunity to trade him for a pick or prospect.    


Edited by GoPre, 01 June 2017 - 01:49 PM.


#80 dudacek

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 01:51 PM

My point being that Okposo signed for who offered him the most cash, it wasn't the allure of downtown Buffalo. Bad analogy on Ladd, that's a horrible contract but I made the mistake of bad remembering, I thought he got 4M annually. 
Agree totally that the system is bad to allow this. You should play for who drafted you but what else do you expect from the NHL.


OKposo and Murray may have been blowing smoke, but the story was the Sabres were his first choice and his first call. He approached us immediately to see if he could get a fair deal done here and signed when it was offered.

I posted about people not making a bigger deal of it at the time exactly because of the Because Buffalo myth.