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How to Fix the D Both Short and Long-term?


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Poll: Who Should Return

Should Gorges Return (He made 3.9 mill this season)

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Should Kulikov Be Re-Signed? (He made 4.3 mill this season)

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Should Franson Be Re-Signed (He made 3.3 mill this year)

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#81 yse325

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 09:58 PM

The league is getting faster, the league is putting more pressure/responsibility on D-men than ever before. Kuli and Bogo are top 4 D-men on pretty much any team in the league. The few teams where that might not be the case, are the teams that have absolutely no cap space left to have an offense.

Your last sentence isn't true. Of the 7 or so teams I mentioned earlier that are 4 deep or more on D, 6 are in the top 10 in the NHL in offense including Minn, Nash, NYI, Wash, and Chi. Only Ana is in the bottom half in scoring and they are still in a playoff position.

Furthermore there is a huge difference .234 and .301. That's 6 pts over 82 games (and is a 25% drop) but his actual drop is from 28 pts to 17 pts and is a 39% decrease in production.

I get it you like Kulikov and think he is a good player who has had a bad season due to injury. I don't think that is true, but we can agree to disagree. I also think the point is moot, he isn't returning.

#82 Thorny

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:33 PM

I'd very much like for Franson to return on a 1 year deal to play the bottom pair. His shortcomings are about as aesthetically displeasing as they come, but he's effective in that role.

 

Yup. I'll happily take McCabe - Ristolainen as top pair, and Guhle - Franson as bottom pair, if th middle pairing is addressed. Speaking of which...

 

Sir. The right side of your second pair. I do not approve.
*still has fantasies of Vegas snagging Bogo*


Is this a realistic possibility?

#83 PASabreFan

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:39 PM

Stop whacking off three times a day; avoid atherosclerosis like the plague.



#84 Dank Dangleson

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:57 PM

Sign Daniel Brickley...I'd really like Murray to be able to pull this kid in...I'd really like to see him pull in NCAA udfa's more often, period.

Brickley came to camp with us last summer, he knows Nelson, he likes the area, and he has to know we DESPERATELY need help on defense.

If he has a good camp, he could easily make this team...he's already 22 years old, 6-3, 205, and he has as many points as most college forwards.

(Another one I'd keep an eye on is North Dakota's Tucker Poolman, who apparently doesn't want to play for Winnipeg and "could pull a Vesey.")

Brickley:
http://www.elitepros...p?player=216251
http://www.msumaveri...22&path=mhockey
http://www.ncaa.com/...ickley-creating

Poolman:
http://www.elitepros...p?player=118006
http://www.undsports...TCLID=209625163
http://www.sbncolleg...t-winnipeg-jets

:wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

*EDIT: A third one is Neal Pionk, a Hobey Baker nominee...
http://www.elitepros...p?player=196583
http://umdbulldogs.c...aspx?rp_id=2321
https://www.prohocke...ed-college.html


http://www.sbncolleg...-pionk-kelleher
 

2. Daniel Brickley, Defenseman, Minnesota State

Last year, Minnesota State’s Casey Nelson was one of the top free agent defensemen available out of the NCAA, eventually signing with the Buffalo Sabres and jumping right into their lineup. Brickley is an extremely similar, if not slightly more polished, prospect.

Brickley isn’t a lightning-fast skater, and is still developing on the defensive end, but his combination of size—listed at 6-2 205 lbs.—and tremendous offensive abilities give him a tantalizing amount of upside. He missed time this year with a fractured wrist, but his time out only increased his value as Minnesota State’s power play struggled without him running things from the point.

What he lacks in straight-line speed, he makes up for with a shiftiness laterally which is really impressive for a big defender that allows him to create his own passing and shooting lanes. He’s aggressive in looking for his shot which helps generate a lot of offense. He’s still a bit of a project, but could develop into a second pairing defenseman that is very good on the power play at the NHL level.
 

4. Neal Pionk, Defenseman, Minnesota Duluth

In his sophomore season, the Duluth-area native has developed into the top defenseman for the Bulldogs, who have spent much of the season as one of the top teams in the country.

Pionk is a very good two-way defenseman thanks to his excellent skating ability and agility. He moves the puck up the ice reliably thanks to an ability to spin his way out of traffic and is an excellent outlet passer. His quickness also gives him the confidence to hold the line in the offensive zone, rather than giving up ice to give himself more cushion defensively.

He’s just an okay defender one-on-one against the rush, but has an above average amount of toughness and physicality for a guy that will classify as a smaller defenseman at the next level.

(***I understand this doesn't "fix" the defense, but it helps and it's cheap.***)


Edited by Dank Dangleson, 09 March 2017 - 12:06 AM.


#85 Huckleberry

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:01 AM

 

Yup. I'll happily take McCabe - Ristolainen as top pair, and Guhle - Franson as bottom pair, if th middle pairing is addressed. Speaking of which...

 
Is this a realistic possibility?

 

They'll sang Ullmark I think, Ennis to over bogo.

 

Offcourse if Bogo gets taken, that leaves you with a lot of capspace to throw at shattenkirk :P


Edited by Huckleberry, 09 March 2017 - 12:02 AM.


#86 yse325

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 12:52 AM

Welcome Dank. Nice post on the college D.

#87 Sabre fan

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:09 AM

the point is that while I totally agree with signing good young d-men, they represent the future, not now. Clearly the thinking within he braintrust that run our beloved Sabres is one of needing experienced d0men, not rookies, or we'd see Nelson here (should be here) and of course Guhle but the truth is Kulikov and Bogo are better then they have shown or we are led to believe. Clearly Blysma's "system" is not suited to today's NHL and is outdated just as Lindy's is (Dallas are a complete trainwreck these days). I kinda get the feeling we need to change the coach, and not the whole team...



#88 yse325

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:30 PM

Bogo isn't going anywhere. His contract is so bad and his performance worse. At least he has shown good play during his time here at points that it's reasonable to think he can get his game back.

Duda and I have been advocating the signing of a 30ish vet or two for experience and injury insurance. Guys like Hunwick, Seidenberg, Quincey, etc.. They'd cost 1 - 2 mill for a season and for that value you price, we'd likely get Franson-ish numbers for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. If Franson is willing to stay for that money, GMTM might keep him (I wouldn't - to slow, but that's me).

If you dump Gorges and let Kulikov and Franson walk you free up about 10.5 mill in cap. Add Guhle, one of the vets(Quincey) you'd still have plenty of money to go after a real upgrade or 2. I'd sign stay at home vet Alzner for 3 years 11.5, and then try to get Brodin or Vatanen (or similar) plus Quincey (for example).
I like that Vatanen and Brodin are 23-25 and locked up contract wise @ around 4 mill for years to come.

D1 Alzner Risto
D2 McCabe Vatanen
D3 Guhle Bogo
D4 Falk Quincey

Edited by yse325, 09 March 2017 - 01:33 PM.


#89 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:32 PM

the point is that while I totally agree with signing good young d-men, they represent the future, not now. Clearly the thinking within he braintrust that run our beloved Sabres is one of needing experienced d0men, not rookies, or we'd see Nelson here (should be here) and of course Guhle but the truth is Kulikov and Bogo are better then they have shown or we are led to believe. Clearly Blysma's "system" is not suited to today's NHL and is outdated just as Lindy's is (Dallas are a complete trainwreck these days). I kinda get the feeling we need to change the coach, and not the whole team...

 

I agree with this. Bogo is not going anywhere so we're going to have to deal with it. I think he is better than he is given credit for. IF Kuli wants to come back, I think he can be had for cheap making him a low risk signing. I still think Murray needs to work on depth, sign another 3/4 D-man and let whoever is not names McCabe and Risto fight over the 3/4 spots. By signing one more 3/4 D-man it'll help the depth because at any one time, chances are one of the top 4 will be injured. 



#90 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:34 PM

Viagra.

 

 

I've heard.



#91 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:17 PM

Is this a realistic possibility?


I don't think it's impossible, but the cash payout being higher than the cap hit is likely a deal breaker. Hence fantasy :)

#92 Thorny

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:28 PM

I don't think it's impossible, but the cash payout being higher than the cap hit is likely a deal breaker. Hence fantasy :)


Darn. So we are pretty much stuck with him and his salary for 3 more years after this one.

#93 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:32 PM

Darn. So we are pretty much stuck with him and his salary for 3 more years after this one.


Given his draft pedigree and league-wide need for defensemen, I think his contract is moveable to the right team. That team, however, won't be an expansion team likely to have cash flow issues.

#94 yse325

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:47 PM

I agree with this. Bogo is not going anywhere so we're going to have to deal with it. I think he is better than he is given credit for. IF Kuli wants to come back, I think he can be had for cheap making him a low risk signing. I still think Murray needs to work on depth, sign another 3/4 D-man and let whoever is not names McCabe and Risto fight over the 3/4 spots. By signing one more 3/4 D-man it'll help the depth because at any one time, chances are one of the top 4 will be injured. 

You keep saying he can be had on the cheap.  Put a number to cheap.  $1 mill, $2 mill more?  

 

I think we are all in agreement that Bogo shall return because his contract (and his play) are so bad.  I wonder if GMTM might try to bury the contract in the AHL after next season?  I'm not sure the cap effects, but the hated Loafs have 13.5 mill in LTIR contracts and 8.3 mill in buried contracts.  



#95 dudacek

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:47 PM

My fantasy involves a coach who can somehow rediscover his game and/or a smooth low-risk Christian Ehrhoff type partner who will just let Zach be Zach.

#96 yse325

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:51 PM

My fantasy involves a coach who can somehow rediscover his game and/or a smooth low-risk Christian Ehrhoff type partner who will just let Zach be Zach.

How about Karl Alzner?  Sign him and maybe he helps let Zach be an effective 4, there by allowing GMTM to get a RD vet (another, but cheaper stay at home type) to tutor Guhle as the 3rd pairing?  Then maybe you sign a Del Zotto to be the replacement puck mover (7th D) and keep Falk at 8.



#97 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:53 PM

My fantasy involves a coach who can somehow rediscover his game and/or a smooth low-risk Christian Ehrhoff type partner who will just let Zach be Zach.


Unfortunately, "his game" was never very good in the first place. Better than now? Well, yea. But not good.

#98 yse325

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:28 PM

Based on the varied responses to this topic, I added 3 poll question regarding your desire to see which vets return,  I also was curious to see what y'all are willing to pay to bring back Franson, Kulikov and Gorges.



#99 Scottysabres

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:10 PM

Hopefully Bogo rebounds enough next season that is trade value becomes net neutral. I'd be ecstatic if it was positive, but I'm not holding out hope.

#100 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:36 PM

You keep saying he can be had on the cheap. Put a number to cheap. $1 mill, $2 mill more?

I think we are all in agreement that Bogo shall return because his contract (and his play) are so bad. I wonder if GMTM might try to bury the contract in the AHL after next season? I'm not sure the cap effects, but the hated Loafs have 13.5 mill in LTIR contracts and 8.3 mill in buried contracts.


I seriously have no idea, and it is irrelevant. My point is, he will more than likely sign for less than most veteran 3/4 D-men are going for because an injury messed up his contract year. Meaning he could be a low risk signing leaving room to sign another 3/4 D-man. That way he can heal up and see if he can regain his form. If he can, GREAT. More than likely Kuli will want a short term contract if he thinks he can regain his form.

Of course, if he wants out of BFLO, the point is moot. But that should be implied by now.

#101 dudacek

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:34 PM

Unfortunately, "his game" was never very good in the first place. Better than now? Well, yea. But not good.

He has been a legit second-pairing guy more often than not in Winnipeg and looked like one when he first arrived here.

I'm letting you hang on to your expansion dream.
You let me hang on to mine.

Edited by dudacek, 09 March 2017 - 08:46 PM.


#102 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:12 PM

He has been a legit second-pairing guy more often than not in Winnipeg and looked like one when he first arrived here.

I'm letting you hang on to your expansion dream.
You let me hang on to mine.

 

I think many fans have an overinflated view of what a 3/4 D-man should be. I agree with you, he's a legit 3/4 D-man. It's what most 3/4 D-men are around the league. 



#103 Thorny

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:30 PM

I think many fans have an overinflated view of what a 3/4 D-man should be. I agree with you, he's a legit 3/4 D-man. It's what most 3/4 D-men are around the league.


Frequently injured for long periods of time?

We can't just look at his play, which has been underwhelming. He also always misses a ton of games like clockwork.

#104 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:38 PM

Frequently injured for long periods of time?

We can't just look at his play, which has been underwhelming. He also always misses a ton of games like clockwork.

 

I understand that's a problem. But, it's the risk you take when you have physical players, and you can't have an entire team made up of soft players. It's why depth is key. 



#105 WildCard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:45 PM

I understand that's a problem. But, it's the risk you take when you have physical players, and you can't have an entire team made up of soft players. It's why depth is key. 

You can get better physical players, both in general and more physically effective than Bogosian, for cheaper than $5M



#106 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:46 PM

I understand that's a problem. But, it's the risk you take when you have physical players, and you can't have an entire team made up of soft players. It's why depth is key. 

 

Bogo is not a physical player. In fact, his physicality is nothing more than a legend of Kassian proportion. He's as strong in front of the net as Gragnani.



#107 WildCard

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:47 PM

Bogo is not a physical player. In fact, his physicality is nothing more than a legend of Kassian proportion. He's as strong in front of the net as Gragnani.

But, he hits people, sometimes

 

Ristolainen is a much, much more physical player than Bogosian



#108 yse325

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:06 PM

We have the worst D in the NHL and so far all the voters but me want to bring back both Franson and Kulikov.  LMAO.  No wonder this team isn't getting better.  I guess y'all think they'll play better once out from under the weight of their blotted contracts.


Edited by yse325, 10 March 2017 - 05:13 PM.


#109 SwampD

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:31 PM

We have the worst D in the NHL and so far all the voters but me want to bring back both Franson and Kulikov.  LMAO.  No wonder this team isn't getting better.  I guess y'all think they'll play better once out from under the weight of their blotted contracts.

:lol:

 

Yes. Our thoughts on Kuli and Franson are why the team isn't getting better.



#110 WildCard

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 06:25 PM

We have the worst D in the NHL and so far all the voters but me want to bring back both Franson and Kulikov. LMAO. No wonder this team isn't getting better. I guess y'all think they'll play better once out from under the weight of their blotted contracts.

I think they'll play better without this ######head of a head coach

#111 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:56 PM

The only thing I want to know is who the four crazy people who want Gorges back are. I think even old man lover* Dudacek is ready to toss him overboard! :P

 

*Not that there's anything wrong with that.



#112 dudacek

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:00 PM

I've brought this name up before.

Ryan Murray didn't play tonight due to a lower body injury.
With expansion looming, he is currently the Jackets fifth defenceman.
I'm sure if push comes to shove, they'd protect him over Jack Johnson and behind Jones and Savard (Werenski is exempt)
That said, Johnson plays more and provides a physical element the rest of the top four lacks.

Murray's star has faded as his career has been disrupted by injuries, but he's a good skater and a poised, calm puck mover, with decent size.
He's easily a top four on our team and still has upside.
He's just 23 and is exactly what we need: a better, left-handed Mark Pysyk.

He could create some cap issues on his next contract if he's still on the third pair.
He makes just under three and is an RFA at the end of next year.

They don't have to move him, but he could be available for the right price.

Edited by dudacek, 11 March 2017 - 01:14 AM.


#113 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:06 AM

We have the worst D in the NHL and so far all the voters but me want to bring back both Franson and Kulikov.  LMAO.  No wonder this team isn't getting better.  I guess y'all think they'll play better once out from under the weight of their blotted contracts.

 

Maybe because some of them have actually watched Kulikov in the past and have seen what he is capable of doing. 



#114 yse325

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:46 AM

Maybe because some of them have actually watched Kulikov in the past and have seen what he is capable of doing. 

Or maybe they are blaming the coach for the team's problems and failing to recognize that the problem is the players not the coach. Or they are failing to realize that he is overpaid and overrated, and if they bring him back the results will be similar just the pay check less. 

 

Sometimes what is past is past and after injuries like he has suffered this season the odds are that he'll never be the same.  Take a look at Bogosian's track record in the seasons following his first significant injury.  He has never been the same and has never again played a full season.

 

Duda, as to Ryan Murray, I'm ok with him as well. There was a recent article from Anaheim in which they think Vatanen is Ana's 4th best D and it would be best to move him and his nearly 5 mill per season contract.  I'm ok with that to. However, Brodin and DeHaan really intrigue me.  Ultimately I'd much rather try one of these young vets then recycle failed players simply because they come cheap and are convenient to re-sign.  

 

What do you think of the Alzner idea?


Edited by yse325, 11 March 2017 - 02:10 AM.


#115 dudacek

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

Murray's track record is that he'll pursue someone under 25 and I think that's what's best for the team.

You'd think Alzner would help, but he smells a little too much like Bogosian and Kulikov and Murray can't afford another high-priced mistake. On the surface he's a good fit, but not as our highest paid D, which a bidding war would make him.
I'm OK with a $4/4 but some team will pay a lot more.

This article does a good job of explaining why we should be cautious.
http://nhlnumbers.co...nts-karl-alzner

Edited by dudacek, 12 March 2017 - 12:40 AM.


#116 yse325

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

http://buffalonews.c...ting-cals-wish/

 

Interesting that the TBN just brought up Alzner as well.  Considering what is on the UFA market, you could be right and a bidding war could ensue.  If Washington doesn't win this year, odds are the Alzner might also want to join a team closer to contending.  However, where he is a little different then Kulikov and Bogo is that he'll only be here to play defense.  IMHO Bogo and Kulikov were partially brought in to help drive offense as well.  I think he'd be a great stay at home partner for Risto, which would allow DD to utilize Risto in more the Hedman, Karlsson, Burns and Letang role of rover.  (By the way, this isn't my description, but a scout that was on the NHLnetwork radio yesterday.)  The said those four are basically given the freedom to rove between playing defense and being almost a 4th forward.  It was a very interesting description of their play.  All have the speed and IQ to make up for slight mistakes in the offensive zone.  I think Risto's skill set fits that role as well.  

 

 

I also I agree I'm not paying 6 for 6 for Alzner.  I like him and think he'd fit well here, but 6/6 gives no bang for the buck and is likely an albatross of a contract in 3-4 years.  I would go to 4.5 per for 5 years with decreasing salary.   



#117 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 07:43 PM

Murray's track record is that he'll pursue someone under 25 and I think that's what's best for the team.

You'd think Alzner would help, but he smells a little too much like Bogosian and Kulikov and Murray can't afford another high-priced mistake. On the surface he's a good fit, but not as our highest paid D, which a bidding war would make him.
I'm OK with a $4/4 but some team will pay a lot more.

This article does a could job of explaining why we should be cautious.
http://nhlnumbers.co...nts-karl-alzner

 

Karl Alzner is the absolute last thing this defense needs. The complete opposite of what we're missing.


I've brought this name up before.

Ryan Murray didn't play tonight due to a lower body injury.
With expansion looming, he is currently the Jackets fifth defenceman.
I'm sure if push comes to shove, they'd protect him over Jack Johnson and behind Jones and Savard (Werenski is exempt)
That said, Johnson plays more and provides a physical element the rest of the top four lacks.

Murray's star has faded as his career has been disrupted by injuries, but he's a good skater and a poised, calm puck mover, with decent size.
He's easily a top four on our team and still has upside.
He's just 23 and is exactly what we need: a better, left-handed Mark Pysyk.

He could create some cap issues on his next contract if he's still on the third pair.
He makes just under three and is an RFA at the end of next year.

They don't have to move him, but he could be available for the right price.

 

I don't know how you could be willing to give up anything of value given Murray's injury history (I swear I thought this before he lasted about 5 minutes tonight :lol: ). What do you think the right price is?



#118 dudacek

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 01:10 AM

Karl Alzner is the absolute last thing this defense needs. The complete opposite of what we're missing.

I don't know how you could be willing to give up anything of value given Murray's injury history (I swear I thought this before he lasted about 5 minutes tonight :lol: ). What do you think the right price is?

Ive thought about it, but I'm not sure what we've got that Columbus would want. I'm not really sure what Columbus needs; they're pretty balanced. A first line centre and cap relief are what comes to mind.

I wouldn't trade our soon to be top 10 pick for him and I doubt they would take just a high second. Reinhart cost picks 16 and 33, Hamilton cost picks 15, 45 and 52. Gudbranson cost a prospect and a second. Leddy cost Pokka, Anders Nilsson and TJ Brennan. I guess Pokka and Nilsson were considered prospects at the time.

I'd give up one of our young wingers and second, I guess?
That's also the price I'd like to pay for a Montour or a Theodore.
I know those guys still have the shiny new car smell that says nothing but upside to the Hockey's Future crowd, but Murray has already proven to be an NHL defenceman and is just a year or two older.

Edited by dudacek, 12 March 2017 - 01:11 AM.


#119 Drunkard

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:34 AM

The cap disappears once the playoffs start, correct? Is there any way we can we put Gorges on waivers near the very end of the season and some team would pick him up for insurance purposes for the playoffs? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part because of his NTC or because teams wouldn't pick him up due to his contract having an additional year.

 

I'd prefer to ditch the dead weight as much as possible. I'd like to get rid of Gorges and Franson and replace them with cheap replacements if true upgrades aren't available. I think Kulikov's injury is still nagging him and he was a solid player in Florida who should be able to regain that form. I'd take him back at a discount on a 1 or 2 year prove it type deal. We're stuck with Bogosian unless we leave him exposed and Vegas likes him more than Ennis or Girgensons or whomever we expose. McCabe and Ristolainen should be core pieces going forward. Kulikov could round out the top 4 with Bogosian if he heals and rebounds or we could split our best defenders and pair Kulikov with Ristolainen and put McCabe with Bogosian. The third pair could be had for cheap. Focus on giving younger guys a chance to develop with sheltered minutes or veterans with speed and passing even if they are prone to mistakes or have other holes in their game (no offense, weak positioning, bad stick work, etc.). Candidates include Guhle (hopefully he's ready), Falk, Fedun, Nelson, whomever else I'm forgetting and the bargain bin scrap him across the league.



#120 yse325

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:45 PM

Just think about how much quicker our D could be without Franson and Gorges.

I also don't think Kulikov should be brought back (and he doesn't want to come back) but Dude posted th Alzner numbers and I went to see where Kulikov stacks up and he is a marginal 4 according to the stats. He was between 90 and 120 in the advanced stats over the last 3 seasons.

EDIT: Blue Jackets Murray out 4-6 after hand surgery. Injury suffered when he blocked a shot against the Sabres.

Edited by yse325, 13 March 2017 - 06:44 PM.