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Lehner is NOT a starter


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#1 rickshaw

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:08 PM

I admit I don't get to watch of games out here on the West Coast but I do see lots of hi (low) lights. And it's very clear from my perch that Lehner is not a capable starter in the NHL. Backup, yes, but go to guy, no. Not by a long shot.

 

Yes he's tough and has a fire in his belly but that doesn't stop shyte goals like Martin's goal against Toronto. That is the goal that breaks a team's back. The one that deflates them. 

 

The team also has too much dead weight. Too many slow, breaking down defencemen. I'd prefer the group get or use their best young D and let them get the experience. The team has 5 goals by defence this year. FIVE! 4 I believe are by #55 who is gonna be a beauty. The bottom 3 defence are old, slow and/or breaking down and that's not good. In Vancouver they have two young guys learning on the fly and they are not liabilities. Sure they make mistakes but they are dynamic players who are learning and will benefit from it. It's time for Buffalo to say goodbye to JG, who is a very nice guy but he isn't happy there and I know that from speaking with him. He didn't outright say it but his body language did and that's enough. Go with the younger kids and see what happens. 

 

Offensively, I believe the team should open it up more and go for goals, as opposed to trying not to get scored on. They have offensive talent and it's time to let them go a bit more. Maybe it's time for a top coach not one who inherited Sid, Malkin and Co. 

 

I know I'm rambling but something still isn't right there. But I'd start by looking for a true starter in net, or until then go with Nillson (although I didn't like the game winner)



#2 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:18 PM

Lehner is tied for 15th in the league in save percentage. He's a starter. An average one, who is not worth a 1st round pick in a strong draft, but a starter nonetheless. One can be a starter without being a franchise goaltender.


Edited by TrueBlueGED, 18 January 2017 - 01:18 PM.


#3 bob_sauve28

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:27 PM

I admit I don't get to watch of games out here on the West Coast but I do see lots of hi (low) lights. And it's very clear from my perch that Lehner is not a capable starter in the NHL. Backup, yes, but go to guy, no. Not by a long shot.

 

Yes he's tough and has a fire in his belly but that doesn't stop shyte goals like Martin's goal against Toronto. That is the goal that breaks a team's back. The one that deflates them. 

 

The team also has too much dead weight. Too many slow, breaking down defencemen. I'd prefer the group get or use their best young D and let them get the experience. The team has 5 goals by defence this year. FIVE! 4 I believe are by #55 who is gonna be a beauty. The bottom 3 defence are old, slow and/or breaking down and that's not good. In Vancouver they have two young guys learning on the fly and they are not liabilities. Sure they make mistakes but they are dynamic players who are learning and will benefit from it. It's time for Buffalo to say goodbye to JG, who is a very nice guy but he isn't happy there and I know that from speaking with him. He didn't outright say it but his body language did and that's enough. Go with the younger kids and see what happens. 

 

Offensively, I believe the team should open it up more and go for goals, as opposed to trying not to get scored on. They have offensive talent and it's time to let them go a bit more. Maybe it's time for a top coach not one who inherited Sid, Malkin and Co. 

 

I know I'm rambling but something still isn't right there. But I'd start by looking for a true starter in net, or until then go with Nillson (although I didn't like the game winner)

What kids do you want to play? 



#4 ddaryl

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:28 PM

He lets in to many soft goals and can't stop a shootout to save his own life.

 

I don't see him as our long term answer...



#5 d4rksabre

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:36 PM

Lehner is tied for 15th in the league in save percentage. He's a starter. An average one, who is not worth a 1st round pick in a strong draft, but a starter nonetheless. One can be a starter without being a franchise goaltender.

 

His numbers have been just fine this year, if we're only looking at numbers.

I think his actual gameplay has been below my standards. His numbers are good in spite of his actual performance. 



#6 Robviously

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:41 PM

He's a starter, but we're not going to win a Stanley Cup with him as our no.1 goalie.  So that was an awesome trade.



#7 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:47 PM

His numbers have been just fine this year, if we're only looking at numbers.

I think his actual gameplay has been below my standards. His numbers are good in spite of his actual performance. 

 

Oh, he's fugly to watch, that's for sure. And it may be that playing low event hockey protects some of his flaws. But if he keeps putting up league average numbers...don't we eventually have to let the numbers have their day? 

 

I remember watching Corey Crawford his first couple years as a starter, and every time I'd walk away thinking he was totally out of control, flopping all over the place, and would have to be replaced. Flunked my eye test entirely. Turns out not only didn't he have to be replaced, but he's actually good.



#8 d4rksabre

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:53 PM

Oh, he's fugly to watch, that's for sure. And it may be that playing low event hockey protects some of his flaws. But if he keeps putting up league average numbers...don't we eventually have to let the numbers have their day? 

 

I remember watching Corey Crawford his first couple years as a starter, and every time I'd walk away thinking he was totally out of control, flopping all over the place, and would have to be replaced. Flunked my eye test entirely. Turns out not only didn't he have to be replaced, but he's actually good.

The numbers can have their day when I see how he looks under a competent coach and a system that actually works. 

But man is he ugly to watch. I won't like....be mad...if he disappears. I just have bigger fish to fry right now. 



#9 Scottysabres

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:53 PM

Lehner is tied for 15th in the league in save percentage. He's a starter. An average one, who is not worth a 1st round pick in a strong draft, but a starter nonetheless. One can be a starter without being a franchise goaltender.


I'll concur with this, but only to the extent on his save %. Every starting goalie lets in a stinker now and then. The problem with Lehner is his are more than others and at game pivotal times.

I have to agree with the UP here, he's not a starter we need and furthermore, a 1st for him and Legwand (a 1 year cap dump) was beyond over payment. It is my opinion Tim threw Uncle Bryan I real bone there.
That in no way benefited Buffalo.

The only saving grace is Petersen in the pipeline, and yet still a ? and years away. What a waste of assets.

Just another testament to the gambling prowess of Tim Murray.

To Tim: Tim, do yourself a favor, stay away from the casinos.

#10 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:56 PM

The numbers can have their day when I see how he looks under a competent coach and a system that actually works. 

But man is he ugly to watch. I won't like....be mad...if he disappears. I just have bigger fish to fry right now. 

 

Yea, I think there's a reasonable chance his flaws would be exposed in a different style of play.

 

 

I'll concur with this, but only to the extent on his save %. Every starting goalie lets in a stinker now and then. The problem with Lehner is his are more than others and at game pivotal times.

I have to agree with the UP here, he's not a starter we need and furthermore, a 1st for him and Legwand (a 1 year cap dump) was beyond over payment. It is my opinion Tim threw Uncle Bryan I real bone there.
That in no way benefited Buffalo.

The only saving grace is Petersen in the pipeline, and yet still a ? and years away. What a waste of assets.

Just another testament to the gambling prowess of Tim Murray.

To Tim: Tim, do yourself a favor, stay away from the casinos.

 

Are they, though? Or do we just think they are because we see every one, and care about every one because it affects our team...whereas with other teams we neither see nor care about every weak goal.



#11 d4rksabre

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 02:04 PM

Yea, I think there's a reasonable chance his flaws would be exposed in a different style of play.

 

 

 

Are they, though? Or do we just think they are because we see every one, and care about every one because it affects our team...whereas with other teams we neither see nor care about every weak goal.

Other teams play well enough to overcome the occasional weak goal. That's the difference. A weak goal against doesn't matter as much to those teams. Every weak goal against this team feels like an existential crisis. 



#12 Scottysabres

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 02:18 PM

Yea, I think there's a reasonable chance his flaws would be exposed in a different style of play.
 
 

 
Are they, though? Or do we just think they are because we see every one, and care about every one because it affects our team...whereas with other teams we neither see nor care about every weak goal.


True, as a team fan it is magnified to an extent beyond the other 29 clybs, I concede that.
But I can think of a half dozen games (including a few shootouts but not limited to them) where Lehner had either killed the momentum or out right lost the game.

I don't see him having success here in Buffalo given where the team is at this time.

#13 Sakman

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 02:56 PM

I'm always bewildered by the split discussion of whether he's a starter (of course he is, he's starting! I just saw it yesterday!), whether he's any good (15th in save % would indicate 'OK' with lots of opinions as to the quality of that performance) and whether the Sabres overpaid for him. As to the latter discussion...it's irrelevant in terms of assessing how good he is now or will be in the future. It's highly relevant in terms of assessing Tim Murray's performance. Both are fair topics of discussion but let's view his performance and future potential vs. other goaltenders real or imagined and not vs. whether he was traded along with Legwand for a late 1st round pick 1.5 years ago.

 

At the time I felt like Murray slightly overpaid for Lehner but it wasn't outrageous. The guy had a great pedigree, size, had won a Calder Cup, and was only 24 years old. He was originally a 2nd round pick and had been progressing in his career so it's not like a late 1st rounder at that point was crazy.  

 

All goalies give up bad goals at times. I can't tell if his are any more frequent than other goalies. But if his overall save % is competitive, then so what? That would infer he makes a lot of tough saves as well to compensate. I'd rather bet on a guy reducing his soft goals through increased consistency and maturity than a guy who doesn't have top end skill. 

 

Nilsson played well last night but the 4th goal was somewhat soft too. Anderson won the game for the Leafs but completely blew the 1st goal to Okposo. It happens. 

 

The Sabres biggest problem is getting outshot and outchanced on a consistent basis, with one of the poorest goal scoring offenses in the league. In that environment every soft goal is doubly painful and emotionally stressful for fans as we know the team can't usually overcome it.



#14 Jsixspd

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:21 PM

He's ok - I don't see him as any real upgrade over other net minders we've had in the crease since Miller left.   He's definitely not elite;  just average (albeit shoot out and breakaways WAAAAY below average!)



#15 BRAWNDO

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:24 PM

This is an article from Dave Davis with some other metrics to measure Lehner


http://kuklaskorner....asnt-worked-out

#16 BuffaloBorn

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 07:00 PM

Lehner will be fine if he gets gts his sht together (particularly mentally). he actually could be a top 5 goalie one day eventually or very soon imo and i dont think he is very old...like 25? The goals that he does let in are garbage goals that can be corrected with positioning and better mental focus. basically saying the weak goals are correctable. first year as starter-young guy. be patient. also people need to respect his numbers more he is not bad. If a second round was traded for him i think consensus would be different.


I will add, however, that if he continues to be relied on in shootouts and cant figure out how to stop the puck that is a MAJOR liability. In a way it almost invalidates from starter status, considering how precious pts are, especially for a team like the sabres



#17 Huckleberry

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 07:51 PM

yes he is our starter, Nilsson showed he isn't better.   And unless Petersen or Ullmark show they are better, he'll be our starter for a while longer.



#18 North Buffalo

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:37 PM

Lehner is not a starter, so your advocating having a starter like half of our D
Bad trade of a pick.

#19 inkman

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:39 PM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.

Edited by inkman, 19 January 2017 - 09:39 PM.


#20 North Buffalo

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:40 PM

until he is off the team it is fair fodder and a number one goaltender is found. ps it is still thursday.

Edited by North Buffalo, 19 January 2017 - 09:41 PM.


#21 Scottysabres

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:45 PM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.


Yes, we know, the truth hurts.

Let it out, it's all going to be ok......there there now, let it out.....

:o

#22 Peppy22

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 05:41 AM

Just one comment...

 

The career of Devan Dubnyk

 

Thanks everyone



#23 Robviously

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:37 AM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.

Horrible rebounds.

The worst shootout goalie maybe in NHL history.

Gets worse during a game with each goal he lets in.

#24 Huckleberry

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:32 AM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.

 

Thank you, getting fed up to , you said it more nicely than I ever could :D



#25 North Buffalo

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 09:13 AM

Thank you, getting fed up to , you said it more nicely than I ever could :D

But But it was a Thursday... whhhyyyyyy????

#26 nfreeman

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:28 AM

So is Nilsson, who is starting tonight, officially getting a chance to seize the #1 job?

 

Discuss.



#27 inkman

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:45 AM

Horrible rebounds.

The worst shootout goalie maybe in NHL history.

Gets worse during a game with each goal he lets in.

Cool. I'm not a fan of his either. I just don't feel the need to mention it every 15 minutes.

#28 Scottysabres

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:46 AM

So is Nilsson, who is starting tonight, officially getting a chance to seize the #1 job?
 
Discuss.


To even be discussing the job ad up for grabs to Nilsson is telling in itself.

I think Lehner will be on the move.

We got Trouble, right here in river city.

#29 MattPie

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:54 AM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.

Cool. I'm not a fan of his either. I just don't feel the need to mention it every 15 minutes.

 

Agreed. It's a sunk cost so whining about it solves absolutely nothing. The trade is done, the pick is used, it's over. The only productive thing now is to look at who is in the system, and who should be our starter long-term whether that person is in the system or now.



#30 yse325

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:18 PM

We also need to get over the fact that he is mediocre.  GMTM is going to re-sign him this summer.   :w00t:  Hopefully he'll re-sign Nilsson as well.  

 

Frankly this isn't a horrible solution.  Both have been adequate and will be even better when the D is upgraded.  Lehner's deficiencies on breakaways are correctable.  The nice thing about his issues is that GMTM can re-sign him without breaking the bank.   



#31 North Buffalo

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:55 PM

Agreed. It's a sunk cost so whining about it solves absolutely nothing. The trade is done, the pick is used, it's over. The only productive thing now is to look at who is in the system, and who should be our starter long-term whether that person is in the system or now.


Just because you coolaid GMTM drinkers are defensive and cant take a little complaint thursdays on Lehner.

We also need to get over the fact that he is mediocre.  GMTM is going to re-sign him this summer.   :w00t:  Hopefully he'll re-sign Nilsson as well.  
 
Frankly this isn't a horrible solution.  Both have been adequate and will be even better when the D is upgraded.  Lehner's deficiencies on breakaways are correctable.  The nice thing about his issues is that GMTM can re-sign him without breaking the bank.

.

Agreed and hopefully TM can find a goalie whisperer. Again Lehner reminds me a lot of the Tampa goalie before he found his game and had a great run. Hopefully he can find that space.

#32 MattPie

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 01:15 PM

Just because you coolaid GMTM drinkers are defensive and cant take a little complaint thursdays on Lehner. .

Agreed and hopefully TM can find a goalie whisperer. Again Lehner reminds me a lot of the Tampa goalie before he found his game and had a great run. Hopefully he can find that space.

 

No, it's because it's pointless to complain now. Do you brood over that time you spent $20 on something at the store and then find you could have ordered the same thing off Amazon for $12? No, you accept, learn from it, and move on. I have some faith that GMTM is moving the team in the right direction, but a couple more questionable trades will disabuse me of that.



#33 Randall Flagg

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 10:27 PM

He's not a very good goalie, man.

#34 Eleven

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 08:14 AM

Is every anti-lehner poster required to mention GMTM overpaid 100 times in every thread. Yeah we ###### get it. Find something else to bitch about.

 

Thing is, he didn't overpay.  That's the going rate for a backup goalie who looks like he might become a starter.  It's ten picks ahead of what the Sabres got for Biron...and the Sabres got the use of Legwand for a year in the trade, too.

 

Any notion that Murray overpaid for Lehner is comparable to the notion that Lindy Ruff knocked out Luke Adam.



#35 That Aud Smell

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 09:25 AM

He didn't overpay by all that much - nothing egregious.

 

But he might have misjudged.

 

I'm still thinking Lehner might find better consistency. And an approach to playing breakaways.



#36 Sakman

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:30 AM

He didn't overpay by all that much - nothing egregious.

 

I've been arguing this for a long time. If it was an above market price, it was only barely so and you can't always get what you want at exactly the desired price. And Murray needed a starting goalie. 

 

 

I thought his rebound control was much better last night. Two of the goals were difficult shots to stop and he made several comparable saves on shots like those in the game. But you give a Forsberg an open shot in the slot, with speed, he's going to bury a large percentage of them and I don't care who is the goalie. 

The other two were weak and semi-weak. The McCloud poke-in was a terrible job at holding the post by Lehner. I noticed Nashville had been going hard to the post all game and Lehner stopped them to that point. But persistence paid off for Nashville and he let in a softie. That's lack of consistency.

The other PP goal was not really excusable either, but admittedly when a guy gets an initial shot at point blank and then a follow-up at point blank with no harassment from the defenseman who is literally lying next to him (as was Risto), sometimes those will go in.  

 

I don't know how his career is going to go from here on out nor does anyone else but he's a reasonable option in net at this point in time assuming the team can score a few goals. If they keep scoring 1 or 2 per game then we need the reincarnation of Hasek and he's not that. 



#37 nfreeman

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:39 AM

I've been arguing this for a long time. If it was an above market price, it was only barely so and you can't always get what you want at exactly the desired price. And Murray needed a starting goalie. 

 

 

I thought his rebound control was much better last night. Two of the goals were difficult shots to stop and he made several comparable saves on shots like those in the game. But you give a Forsberg an open shot in the slot, with speed, he's going to bury a large percentage of them and I don't care who is the goalie. 

The other two were weak and semi-weak. The McCloud poke-in was a terrible job at holding the post by Lehner. I noticed Nashville had been going hard to the post all game and Lehner stopped them to that point. But persistence paid off for Nashville and he let in a softie. That's lack of consistency.

The other PP goal was not really excusable either, but admittedly when a guy gets an initial shot at point blank and then a follow-up at point blank with no harassment from the defenseman who is literally lying next to him (as was Risto), sometimes those will go in.  

 

I don't know how his career is going to go from here on out nor does anyone else but he's a reasonable option in net at this point in time assuming the team can score a few goals. If they keep scoring 1 or 2 per game then we need the reincarnation of Hasek and he's not that. 

 

Good post.  I agree in particular with the bolded.  Rebound control has been his Achilles heel, IMHO.  There was one bullet from PK in particular that Lehner was able to smother instead of kicking it out into the doorstep, which he's done too often in the past.

 

I thought Lehner was playing very well last night until that first softie when he came off the post to his left.  The 2nd one was infuriating.

 

Let's see how he responds.



#38 That Aud Smell

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:41 AM

^

 

And here's the thing, last I checked, the Sabres had the 4th best team SV% in the league (.934). While there have been pockets of poor play, goaltending has not been the team's problem, as far as I can tell.



#39 Sabres79

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:49 AM

Again (and again and again and again), as long as there are genuine doubts, for all sorts of reasons we're discussing in many other threads, as to whether the Sabres are going to score at least two goals in any given game (better recently, may it continue), goaltending is far, far down on the list of things we need to worry about.

Robin Lehner will be, um.... okay?

#40 Murray's Rats

Murray's Rats

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 03:32 PM

Just one comment...

The career of Devan Dubnyk

Thanks everyone

Dubnyk played for an Oilers minor league team near me in the ECHL. Set club records for wins, gaa and sv% and led em to the playoffs. They lost.
Lehner was the MVP of the Calder Cup playoffs for Binghamton, they won.