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Let the Fire Bylsma Watch begin


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#41 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 12:39 AM

He said that. Hence the O'Reilly and Kane trades. Most would argue as to the success of those trades but I commend him none the less.

He traded for Kulikov and signed Okposo. Without injury, that should have been enough to get to the next level with the development of the youngish.

Unfortunately, Eichel, Kane, O'Reilly, Ennis, Kulikov, Bogosian have been injured for much of the season. That's 2/3 of your top six and 1/3 of your defensive core not participating. I'll give them a little leeway.

 

Minor quibble: I don't think anyone's arguing the success of the O'Reilly trade. If they are, they should be banned with all deliberate speed.



#42 BRAWNDO

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:03 AM

If he does get fired who do The Sabres bring in?

Phil's Name has been mentioned here, what about Dave Tippett if the Yotes fire him?

Or Kris Knoblauch of the Erie Otters?

#43 WildCard

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:17 AM

If he does get fired who do The Sabres bring in?

Phil's Name has been mentioned here, what about Dave Tippett if the Yotes fire him?

Or Kris Knoblauch of the Erie Otters?

Didn't Tippett sign an extension? I doubt that new gm fires him, he seems like a smart kid

I want Todd Richards, currently assistant coach for TB. Not sure if we could pry him away. Is bringing Ruff back at all a possibility?

#44 beerme1

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:32 AM

He said that. Hence the O'Reilly and Kane trades. Most would argue as to the success of those trades but I commend him none the less.

He traded for Kulikov and signed Okposo. Without injury, that should have been enough to get to the next level with the development of the youngish.

Unfortunately, Eichel, Kane, O'Reilly, Ennis, Kulikov, Bogosian have been injured for much of the season. That's 2/3 of your top six and 1/3 of your defensive core not participating. I'll give them a little leeway.

 

Ink I have to say I admire your message and it's simple but brutal truth. I don't know why so many are overlooking these mind blowing issues. I'm saying DD gets a pass but there is a reason why we look like we do and it's not just him.

 

 

 

So it's either Bylsma or injuries.

It's both,

But man we are boring as hell to watch

 

It is both and I agree it's mostly been boring as hell. But I'm going, watching and waiting for the turn to occur.

 

 

Didn't Tippett sign an extension? I doubt that new gm fires him, he seems like a smart kid

I want Todd Richards, currently assistant coach for TB. Not sure if we could pry him away. Is bringing Ruff back at all a possibility?

 

I was all in on Luke Richardson at the time. What's he doing now? Not wearing shoes or slipper around the house of course but what else?



#45 Thorny

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 02:19 AM

If he does get fired who do The Sabres bring in?
Phil's Name has been mentioned here, what about Dave Tippett if the Yotes fire him?
Or Kris Knoblauch of the Erie Otters?


The Yankees former 2nd Baseman?

....oh, wait. That was Chuck.

#46 beerme1

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 02:37 AM

The Yankees former 2nd Baseman?

....oh, wait. That was Chuck.

 

 

Chuck Knoblauch for Pres! He ruled the baseball video games of my era.



#47 Huckleberry

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:48 AM

Didn't Tippett sign an extension? I doubt that new gm fires him, he seems like a smart kid

I want Todd Richards, currently assistant coach for TB. Not sure if we could pry him away. Is bringing Ruff back at all a possibility?

 

Doubt ruff will become available, unless the Dallas team completely implodes.



#48 BuffaninATL

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:49 AM

Corsica actually has a scoring chance metric. Overall percentage we're pretty good at 53.58%, 7th in the league. But that's due almost entirely to our scoring chance prevention, where we're 3rd at 6.53 per game. Problem is we're only generating 7.54 per game, which is 19th. Before you ask, I'm not sure exactly what they count as a scoring chance (which is why I don't regularly cite the data), but a safe bet are things in the whole slot area.

We are shooting a little low as a team, at 5.06% (as opposed to our expected, per Corsica, of 5.97%), but even if we were shooting as expected, it'd still only give us another 6 goals on the season. We simply aren't generating enough chances to score more.

Which brings me full circle to Bylsma: he's using the roster incorrectly. As I think we can all agree, we're not a team with a bunch of high end finishers (our only guy with a realistic expectation of hitting 30 is Jack), so we have to manufacture offense through volume and control. Bylsma is doing the exact opposite of that with his passive forecheck, weak puck support, and neutral zone trapping. Sure we're limiting chances against at an elite level, but we're generating chances at a below average level and when combined with our roster, has resulted in a total dearth of offense.

Backing away from the stats some, looking at our defense, I think it's pretty clear that Risto, McCabe, and Bogosian (lord save my soul) are better at attacking offensively than they are at defending in their own zone. Yet, Bylsma's system has them spending more time playing to their weaknesses than to their strengths. Every game I see a lot of chances to either lead a rush or pinch, but they just choose to sit back instead. If it was only say Gorges doing it, that's one thing, but they all are. That's coaching.

Jack coming back will help, as he can generate on his own outside of the system, and he can finish. But him coming back doesn't fix the underlying systemic problems Bylsma is responsible for. People can point to the injuries all they want, but it was the same last year, and it was the same this year when we were healthy minus Jack. It's how Bylsma wants to play. I've often joked about what Bylsma learned in his year off...well I think he decided that clogging everything up and castrating the generation of chances (by both teams) was the way to go. Though his breakouts and dumping and chasing is basically the same as in Pittsburgh, I think he neutered the forecheck he used there in favor of stifling the competiton (someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I have no memory of Pittsburgh playing a 1-2-2 with any regularity...quite the contrary, I remember them giving up a lot of speed rushes through the neutral zone).

Bleh.

 

this is the analysis I have been looking for, thanks



#49 Jacque Richard

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 08:35 AM

No lindy my gosh move on

#50 PASabreFan

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 09:43 AM

Didn't Tippett sign an extension? I doubt that new gm fires him, he seems like a smart kid

I want Todd Richards, currently assistant coach for TB. Not sure if we could pry him away. Is bringing Ruff back at all a possibility?

I think with Pegula at the helm, anything is possible, just not Darren. (I slay me.)



#51 Eleven

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 09:56 AM

I don't think talent has a single, solitary, thing to do with why Babcock chose the Leafs. 

 

Toronto is an abomination defensively and they're not going to win anything until they clean it up, but in the meantime, man are they fun to watch. They're a bad team, but they're the right kind of bad: entertaining.

 

 

So it's either Bylsma or injuries.

It's both,

But man we are boring as hell to watch

 

See, these are decent points.  It's not just that the team is bad; it's the WAY in which the team was bad.

 

 

Chuck Knoblauch for Pres! He ruled the baseball video games of my era.

 

I take it there wasn't much throwing in those games.



#52 inkman

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:11 AM

Minor quibble: I don't think anyone's arguing the success of the O'Reilly trade. If they are, they should be banned with all deliberate speed.


A poster lamented about us trading away prospects, including Zadorov, who is flourishing in CO. Hence, my post.

#53 qwksndmonster

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:24 AM

A poster lamented about us trading away prospects, including Zadorov, who is flourishing in CO. Hence, my post.

He is? Awesome. I love Nikita.

#54 inkman

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:31 AM

Ink I have to say I admire your message and it's simple but brutal truth. I don't know why so many are overlooking these mind blowing issues. I'm saying DD gets a pass but there is a reason why we look like we do and it's not just him.




It is both and I agree it's mostly been boring as hell. But I'm going, watching and waiting for the turn to occur.



I was all in on Luke Richardson at the time. What's he doing now? Not wearing shoes or slipper around the house of course but what else?

It's extraordinarily clear that DD think limiting the other teams chances are his best way to win right now. I'd a dummy like me can figure that out, then it's pretty obvious. If we are going to lose 75% of our games make them exciting the TO. Grab a suspect puck mover or two who may not play good D, TJ Brennan anyone, and lets fire up this offense. I'd rather lose 5-4 than live through these borefests.

#55 LGR4GM

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:03 AM

Zadorov is not flourishing in Colorado. No one really is

#56 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:08 AM

Zadorov is not flourishing in Colorado. No one really is


Don't be silly...from everything I've heard he hasn't been late to a single meeting! :P

#57 Kristian

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:09 AM

See, these are decent points.  It's not just that the team is bad; it's the WAY in which the team was bad.

 

 

 

I take it there wasn't much throwing in those games.

Saw the Toronto - Caps game last night.

We are truly boring as ######.



#58 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:12 AM

A poster lamented about us trading away prospects, including Zadorov, who is flourishing in CO. Hence, my post.


I see. Did you report the poster for offensive content?

#59 bunomatic

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:21 AM

Grigorenko scored last night. That gives him what 2 on the season. Really haven't heard much about Zadorov. I love having  ROR on this team.



#60 qwksndmonster

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:35 AM

Grigorenko scored last night. That gives him what 2 on the season. Really haven't heard much about Zadorov. I love having ROR on this team.

I love Zadorov, and would still love to have him in the pipline. But I'd trade 4 Zadorovs and 3 Grigorenkos for O'Reilly.

#61 BRAWNDO

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 12:41 PM

Didn't Tippett sign an extension? I doubt that new gm fires him, he seems like a smart kid
I want Todd Richards, currently assistant coach for TB. Not sure if we could pry him away. Is bringing Ruff back at all a possibility?


I forgot about the extension. I saw either Friedman or McKenzie mention he maybe on the hot seat this season.

#62 Jsixspd

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:30 PM

To show how bad this team is;

 

Our highest point scoring player - Okposo -is ranked NINETY FIFTH in the NHL

Our top goal scorer - Moulson -is 61st in the league.  

Our player with the highest assists - Risto - is 88th in the league

 

Take heart though - We DO have a player ranked in the top 50  - that idiot Gorges is ranked 50th in PIM.   Maybe they oughta give him another "A" for his 'achievement'?? HOORAH!!!   *smh*    

BTW, this $4 million dollar D-man  has managed to make it 1/4th of the way through the entire season without yet scoring a single point - Do you think ... he...could...go....all....the...way!!!!??


Gorges makes me almost wish for the return of Errorhoff or Myers.... jeebus christmas!   


Edited by Jsixspd, 27 November 2016 - 01:30 PM.


#63 inkman

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 01:37 PM

To show how bad this team is;

Our highest point scoring player - Okposo -is ranked NINETY FIFTH in the NHL

Our top goal scorer - Moulson -is 61st in the league.

Our player with the highest assists - Risto - is 88th in the league

Take heart though - We DO have a player ranked in the top 50 - that idiot Gorges is ranked 50th in PIM. Maybe they oughta give him another "A" for his 'achievement'?? HOORAH!!! *smh*

BTW, this $4 million dollar D-man has managed to make it 1/4th of the way through the entire season without yet scoring a single point - Do you think ... he...could...go....all....the...way!!!!??

I get that you hate #4, and you have a lot of company but this continued measuring of his worth based on points doesn't help your argument. He's only passed the 20 point Mark once.

#64 7+6=13

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:19 PM

To show how bad this team is;

 

Our highest point scoring player - Okposo -is ranked NINETY FIFTH in the NHL

Our top goal scorer - Moulson -is 61st in the league.  

Our player with the highest assists - Risto - is 88th in the league

 

Take heart though - We DO have a player ranked in the top 50  - that idiot Gorges is ranked 50th in PIM.   Maybe they oughta give him another "A" for his 'achievement'?? HOORAH!!!   *smh*    

BTW, this $4 million dollar D-man  has managed to make it 1/4th of the way through the entire season without yet scoring a single point - Do you think ... he...could...go....all....the...way!!!!??


Gorges makes me almost wish for the return of Errorhoff or Myers.... jeebus christmas!   

 

I get wanting defenseman to contribute but as a general rule they shouldn't be judged on points.  I'm not defending Gorges but points isn't what I'd like to see from him.



#65 Tondas

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:42 PM

I get wanting defenseman to contribute but as a general rule they shouldn't be judged on points.  I'm not defending Gorges but points isn't what I'd like to see from him.

 

I get your point but have a philosophical disagreement here and I think this is a contributing factor to the Sabres woes thus far.  EVERY Sabre should be expected to score, granted some more than others.  Expected to score.  I think Gorges is happy just to get a shot on goal.  Not acceptable.  Bury the chance like you have been doing since you were 5 years old as a Mite.  Bill Hajt, a former Sabre All-Star and as defensive a defensiveman as you'll ever see, scored at a rate double of what Gorges has so far.  I know everyone has a role, but I think some maybe think they get a free pass since their role is to stop goals.  Again, the main goal is to score!  DDB needs to instill that mentality.  It may be difficult for DDB to do this since his playing career was built on a mentality of stopping goals.


Edited by Tondas, 27 November 2016 - 05:44 PM.


#66 qwksndmonster

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:58 PM

I AM defending Gorges.  He is what he always has been, a defensive D-man.  Yes, he's a disaster with the puck, and yes, we've had to endure the sight of a lot of Gorges shots lately; but he is a fine NHL defenseman.  He could comfortably play third pair on any team in the league. He's routinely handed the toughest minutes and he plays them well.  Blame Bylsma for coaching a defensive style, blame the hockey gods for our injuries, but don't blame Josh Gorges. Maybe stop expecting him to be something he never was and you'll appreciate him more as a player.



#67 Tondas

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:10 PM

OK.  I get it Monster.  Believe me, as a talented former never good-enough-for the-ECHL player, any player that gets to the highest level has earned my respect, whatever his role.  I think it's more DDB's defensive "mentality", not a system.  I'm not sure the "you're expected to score" mentality is universally applied.


Edited by Tondas, 27 November 2016 - 06:11 PM.


#68 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:20 PM

"Spuddy" Gallant.......................... MAKE IT HAPPEN!



#69 Jsixspd

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 07:42 AM

Not expecting a ton of production from Gorges.... but not even a single assist one fourth of the way through the season and double or even triple his previous rate of PIM??? (his final season in Montreal he had only 12 PIM in 48 games!!! - he's got 21 already after 21 games!!)    

It's looking like the worst season of his career by far.  

Maybe it's not Gorges, but Bylsma's system he's playing under now?    Maybe his skill set just doesn't mesh with Bylsma's system at all?    

 



#70 LGR4GM

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:17 AM

Wonder if we can coax Dale Hunter back to the NHL...

#71 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:33 AM

Wonder if we can coax Dale Hunter back to the NHL...

 

You want to make the team even less watchable?



#72 dudacek

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:42 AM

For his entire career Josh Gorges has accumulated his points through second assists and lucky bounces.
In other words, he needs help. It's not like his creativity has dried up, his offensive game has always been non-existent.

#73 LGR4GM

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:48 AM

You want to make the team even less watchable?

Yes lol

#74 MattPie

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:51 AM

OK, you watch until 20-hundred hours.

 

8 bells

 

Grigorenko scored last night. That gives him what 2 on the season. Really haven't heard much about Zadorov. I love having  ROR on this team.

 

I happened to catch Zadorov take a hooking penalty the other night on HNIC.

 

Not expecting a ton of production from Gorges.... but not even a single assist one fourth of the way through the season and double or even triple his previous rate of PIM??? (his final season in Montreal he had only 12 PIM in 48 games!!! - he's got 21 already after 21 games!!)    

It's looking like the worst season of his career by far.  

Maybe it's not Gorges, but Bylsma's system he's playing under now?    Maybe his skill set just doesn't mesh with Bylsma's system at all?    

 

 

Points: as someone pointed out, Gorges is directly affected by the team not scoring. He never generates offense anyways, but he's not getting points via the Larry Carriere method (give the puck to Gil behind the net, who then skates through everyone and scores). I think we'll see some assists when Eichel returns.

 

PIM: Gorges tasked with containing the other teams' top-line players is going to result in penalties. He can't keep up so he has to find less-legal methods. I doubt he was playing with Subban in MTL, so he wasn't getting the other teams' best.



#75 RonHextallsShoulderPads

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:00 AM

attended the Caps game behind the Sabres shoot-twice. this is a very bad team. They're so lost, it's almost like they're forcing each player to play a position they're not meant for. they are throwing shots at the net from any angle, they have NO URGENCY, and they are not playing with confidence. This could've easily been a 5-1 game. And the worst part is that the Caps didn't even look that great, they just waited for the Sabres to make mistakes. And boy did they deliver.  

This starts and ends with the coaching. 



#76 BRAWNDO

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:14 AM

Wonder if we can coax Dale Hunter back to the NHL...


His defensive style of play, brings a tear to Lou Lam's Eye

#77 TrueBlueGED

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:20 AM

On Gorges, from Travis Yost:

 

Attached File  gorges.png   17.19KB   0 downloads

 

Some of this decline is surely due to going from the Habs to the Sabres, but I don't think that accounts for the whole shebang. Methinks there's been some very real decline in his on-ice capabilities.

 

Oh, and he's an anchor to Ristolainen (not that I blame Gorges for Bylsma's player usage). Obligatory small sample warning (they've been together for 258 ES minutes, Risto apart from Gorges for 91, and Gorges apart from Risto for 51):

 

                    CF%   CF60   CA60   GF%   GF60   GA60                                       

Together            40.5  43.6   64.1   35.7  1.16   2.09

Risto w/o Gorges    53.5  59.6   51.8   66.7  1.31   0.66

Gorges w/o Risto    34.7  38.9   73.0   33.3  1.18   2.36

 

Last season when I pulled up these numbers, Risto was better offensively without Gorges but suffered defensively. So far this year (and I stress so far), Risto has been worse with Gorges across the board. If the pairing remains together once Kulikov or Bogo is back, I may just lose my mind. I don't care if it's McCabe-Risto and Gorges-Bogosian or Kulikov-Risto and McCabe-Bogo (assuming one of our missing D returns before the other), GET GORGES AWAY FROM RISTO DAMMIT! 


Edited by TrueBlueGED, 28 November 2016 - 11:21 AM.


#78 qwksndmonster

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 01:21 PM

That one game we had of watching Kulikov and Risto go D to D effectively was pretty great.

#79 Jsixspd

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 12:27 PM

On Gorges, from Travis Yost:

 

attachicon.gifgorges.png

 

Some of this decline is surely due to going from the Habs to the Sabres, but I don't think that accounts for the whole shebang. Methinks there's been some very real decline in his on-ice capabilities.

 

Oh, and he's an anchor to Ristolainen (not that I blame Gorges for Bylsma's player usage). Obligatory small sample warning (they've been together for 258 ES minutes, Risto apart from Gorges for 91, and Gorges apart from Risto for 51):

 

                    CF%   CF60   CA60   GF%   GF60   GA60                                       

Together            40.5  43.6   64.1   35.7  1.16   2.09

Risto w/o Gorges    53.5  59.6   51.8   66.7  1.31   0.66

Gorges w/o Risto    34.7  38.9   73.0   33.3  1.18   2.36

 

Last season when I pulled up these numbers, Risto was better offensively without Gorges but suffered defensively. So far this year (and I stress so far), Risto has been worse with Gorges across the board. If the pairing remains together once Kulikov or Bogo is back, I may just lose my mind. I don't care if it's McCabe-Risto and Gorges-Bogosian or Kulikov-Risto and McCabe-Bogo (assuming one of our missing D returns before the other), GET GORGES AWAY FROM RISTO DAMMIT! 

Excellent deep dive and detailed stats - thank you so much for this information.  Gorges and Risto clearly go together like oil and water.  

And still wondering if it's Bylsma's 'system' that's mostly responsible (so many other dynamics of course) for tanking Gorges' play ?  

 



#80 Jsixspd

Jsixspd

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Posted 29 November 2016 - 03:43 PM

How about some alternate nicknames for Disco Dan?

Dismal Dan?

Downbeat Dan?

 

Dour Dan?

 

Depressing Dan?

 

Discouraging Dan?

 

Downer Dan?