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Compliance Buyouts


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#1 Eleven

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:09 AM

So the Sabres have two available, and one is almost certainly to be used on Leino.

Is it possible that they have to use the other on Ehrhoff?  The grid (below) on possible recapture penalties if he retires--even if he's traded first--is scary:

http://capgeek.com/recapture-grid

#2 inkman

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:53 AM

Do you think he retires in the next 5 years ?

#3 Lanny

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:54 AM

If he is traded it will be worse as the Sabres won't gain the credit from the final years of the deal where his cap hit is greater than his salary.

I don't think I would buy him out as those penalties are not likely to be all that restrictive, especially with a rising cap. However, even if salary is retained, I don't think I would risk trading him

Edited by Lanny, 13 June 2014 - 10:55 AM.


#4 Tankalicious

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:57 AM

I don't really think that Ehrhoff's cap recapture will be too much of a problem. What we can get for him in a trade would be more appealing than worrying about the potential of what might happen years from now.

I would rather use the other buyout on somebody else's mistake.

#5 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:08 AM

I'd accept a buyout right about now.

#6 Lanny

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:13 AM

View PostTankalicious, on 13 June 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I don't really think that Ehrhoff's cap recapture will be too much of a problem. What we can get for him in a trade would be more appealing than worrying about the potential of what might happen years from now.

I would rather use the other buyout on somebody else's mistake.
That $10M hit in 2020 could be pretty crippling for one season.

Edited by Lanny, 13 June 2014 - 11:13 AM.


#7 Eleven

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:16 AM

View PostLanny, on 13 June 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

That $10M hit in 2020 could be pretty crippling for one season.

Yeah, just when they should be peaking, too.  It's a legitimate concern.

#8 Tankalicious

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:17 AM

Murray said he'd be looking to take on some salary if it meant moving back into the first round. Bob McKenzie said Murray has told teams he'll use a compliance buyout for another team's bad contract, so I think they'll save it for that.

Ehrhoff will be 36 when the last year of his deal comes in. I think he could easily finish the deal without retiring.

Edited by Tankalicious, 13 June 2014 - 11:19 AM.


#9 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:21 AM

$10M cap hit in 2020?

http://www.capgeek.com/player/121

I don't see why Ehrhoff would be a compliance buyout candidate. He has a very cap friendly contract, especially considering most of the real money was paid up front. Only thing I can tell that would be detrimental is the length. And the type of player Ehrhoff is, I can easily see him playing well into his late 30's, if not to 40.

#10 Lanny

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:29 AM

View PostJJFIVEOH, on 13 June 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

$10M cap hit in 2020?

http://www.capgeek.com/player/121

I don't see why Ehrhoff would be a compliance buyout candidate. He has a very cap friendly contract, especially considering most of the real money was paid up front. Only thing I can tell that would be detrimental is the length. And the type of player Ehrhoff is, I can easily see him playing well into his late 30's, if not to 40.
If he is traded and retires prior to the 2020 season, the Sabres have a recapture penalty of $10M

http://www.capgeek.c...raded_year=2014

#11 ThirtyEight

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostLanny, on 13 June 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

If he is traded and retires prior to the 2020 season, the Sabres have a recapture penalty of $10M

http://www.capgeek.c...raded_year=2014

The cap will probably be $100 by then anyway. However, he would be retiring at mid-late 30s. That is fine, it isn't like he is signed until he is 45

#12 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:56 AM

View PostLanny, on 13 June 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

If he is traded and retires prior to the 2020 season, the Sabres have a recapture penalty of $10M

http://www.capgeek.c...raded_year=2014

Ah, thank you. Forgot about that.

#13 dudacek

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:05 PM

Can the Sabres restructure Ehrhoff's contract to eliminate the recapture issue?
Or is the damage already done because the front-loaded payouts have already been made?

Can the Sabres somehow petition to take the recapture hit on their cap now, when they have the space?
That would compensate for how the original contract circumvented the rules and address the spirit of what the recapture was designed to police.

What if Ehrhoff "retires" now, we pay the penalty, which takes us to the floor, then we resign him?

Edited by dudacek, 13 June 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#14 beerme1

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:06 PM

View Postinkman, on 13 June 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Do you think he retires in the next 5 years ?

How many of those does he play like he did this season?

#15 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostTankalicious, on 13 June 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Murray said he'd be looking to take on some salary if it meant moving back into the first round. Bob McKenzie said Murray has told teams he'll use a compliance buyout for another team's bad contract, so I think they'll save it for that.

Ehrhoff will be 36 when the last year of his deal comes in. I think he could easily finish the deal without retiring.

He easily could. Or he could have a series of knee injuries (a la Drury) and call it quits at 34. That could happen here, but the Sabres could at least convince him (hopefully) to play it out on LITR (like Pronger) and not kill the teams cap. Another team may not give him the option or actively encourage him to retire to screw the Sabres. I'm in the keep him or buy out, but not trade camp.

Edited by MattPie, 13 June 2014 - 12:34 PM.


#16 Tankalicious

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:36 PM

View PostMattPie, on 13 June 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:



He easily could. Or he could have a series of knee injuries (a la Drury) and call it quits at 34. That could happen here, but the Sabres could at least convince him (hopefully) to play it out on LITR (like Pronger) and not kill the teams cap. Another team may not give him the option or actively encourage him to retire to screw the Sabres. I'm in the keep him or buy out, but not trade camp.

Sure, he COULD have knee injuries. So could whoever we pick at 2. Should we trade the pick because maybe that player will get hurt and retire? No.

These are all pretty big maybes. Murray should make the move that he thinks benefits the team, which, to me, would be to get the most out of an Ehrhoff trade now.

#17 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:37 PM

View Postbeerme1, on 13 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

How many of those does he play like he did this season?

He's been a damn good D-man. I can't hold the last quarter of this past season against him. I'm for keeping him if he wants to stay. No matter how much people want to tear a team apart and start from scratch, you need some veterans no matter how you look at it.

#18 MattPie

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:39 PM

View PostTankalicious, on 13 June 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Sure, he COULD have knee injuries. So could whoever we pick at 2. Should we trade the pick because maybe that player will get hurt and retire? No.

These are all pretty big maybes. Murray should make the move that he thinks benefits the team, which, to me, would be to get the most out of an Ehrhoff trade now.

You're right that it's all a gamble, but gambling with what will be at least 10% of of your cap space (in the worst case, and if the cap is $100M by then) is a pretty big gamble.

#19 thewookie1

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:46 PM

I'd buyout Leino with a normal buyout then use our two on other teams screw ups.

I have a question though, if we traded for Hossa from Chicago and bought him out with a compliance buyout, would Chicago be allowed to resign Hossa? If yes, I'd give Stan Bowman a call; Hossa's recapture is worse than Ehrhoffs by the simple fact his contract goes well into his 40's

#20 Tankalicious

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:57 PM

One thing I wondered was if we could re-acquire Ehrhoff later on and use a regular buyout on him to avoid the huge recapture.

View Postthewookie1, on 13 June 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'd buyout Leino with a normal buyout then use our two on other teams screw ups.

I have a question though, if we traded for Hossa from Chicago and bought him out with a compliance buyout, would Chicago be allowed to resign Hossa? If yes, I'd give Stan Bowman a call; Hossa's recapture is worse than Ehrhoffs by the simple fact his contract goes well into his 40's

No, a team can't trade a player and then resign them after they're bought out using a compliance buyout.

#21 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:11 PM

None of these guys are going to retire early. They are all going to Chris Pronger their way to the end of their contracts. This is absolutely an unwritten agreement between the Owners and the NHLPA.

#22 Lanny

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

View Postdudacek, on 13 June 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

What if Ehrhoff "retires" now, we pay the penalty, which takes us to the floor, then we resign him?
If he retired now the penalty would be the $10M divided amongst the years remaining on the contract, so only like $1.43M per season for the next 7 years.

#23 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:16 PM

View Postdudacek, on 13 June 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Can the Sabres restructure Ehrhoff's contract to eliminate the recapture issue?
Or is the damage already done because the front-loaded payouts have already been made?

Can the Sabres somehow petition to take the recapture hit on their cap now, when they have the space?
That would compensate for how the original contract circumvented the rules and address the spirit of what the recapture was designed to police.

What if Ehrhoff "retires" now, we pay the penalty, which takes us to the floor, then we resign him?

NHL contracts can't be restructured.

#24 thewookie1

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:17 PM

View PostTankalicious, on 13 June 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

One thing I wondered was if we could re-acquire Ehrhoff later on and use a regular buyout on him to avoid the huge recapture.



No, a team can't trade a player and then resign them after they're bought out using a compliance buyout.



Are you certain, because I know you can't sign the guy you bought out, but if Buffalo were to buy him out wouldn't we then be the team unable to resign him?  Could you send me a link to this info?

#25 inkman

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:34 PM

View Postbeerme1, on 13 June 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

How many of those does he play like he did this season?
If I had it my way he's playing like that for someone else

#26 Tankalicious

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 12:39 AM

Compliance buyouts officially start at midnight on Monday.

#27 beerme1

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:52 PM

View PostJJFIVEOH, on 13 June 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:



He's been a damn good D-man. I can't hold the last quarter of this past season against him. I'm for keeping him if he wants to stay. No matter how much people want to tear a team apart and start from scratch, you need some veterans no matter how you look at it.

I'm fine with a veteran who looks and acts like he wants to be here. A la Ott. I'm not fine with a vet that looks and acts like he'd rather not be stuck on a full blown rebuild. Or someone whose skill is so far deteriorated like Hank. Much as like him there are other vets that could contribute much more for us.

#28 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

View Postbeerme1, on 14 June 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

I'm fine with a veteran who looks and acts like he wants to be here. A la Ott. I'm not fine with a vet that looks and acts like he'd rather not be stuck on a full blown rebuild. Or someone whose skill is so far deteriorated like Hank. Much as like him there are other vets that could contribute much more for us.

With the exception of the last quarter of the season when he was stuck picking up everybody elses slack because half the roster wasn't capable of playing at an NHL level, he has been a professional. He never went through the motions, he usually looked like he enjoyed being there (whether he actually did or not) and there was very little on the roster to compliment his strengths. If he wants to go, get him out. If he hasn't made mention of being traded I don't see why it would be a priority. I doubt there was a D-man in the league last year that played so many minutes and had to cover for so many inadequacies of everybody else around him.

What defensive veterans? Myers? Weber? Weber is a borderline NHL D-man and Myers hasn't proven anything yet. A short stretch of games does not make up for the last 3 years of underachievements. Ehrhoff is the very least of this teams concerns.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Edited by JJFIVEOH, 14 June 2014 - 07:12 PM.


#29 Lanny

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:24 AM

View PostEleven, on 13 June 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

So the Sabres have two available, and one is almost certainly to be used on Leino.

Is it possible that they have to use the other on Ehrhoff?  The grid (below) on possible recapture penalties if he retires--even if he's traded first--is scary:

http://capgeek.com/recapture-grid
Saw something that said in order to use a compliance buyout on a player that player has to pass through waivers first. Which, if Ehrhoff is claimed on waivers (I assume he would be) the Sabres would then be on the hook for the full recapture penalty they'd be looking to avoid with the buyout. If they're looking to reduce the risk of the recapture penalty the only option for Ehrhoff is to keep him.


Quote

The league has confirmed that both ordinary-course and compliance buyouts supersede cap benefit recapture. However, a player must clear unconditional waivers prior to any buyout — unless he chooses to block the waiver process with a no-move clause, should he have one — and thus could be claimed by another team if the player intends to remain active. In these cases, the buyout is pre-empted and the waiving team is still subject to the recapture penalties they were trying to avoid. Meanwhile, ordinary-course buyouts executed in “back-diving” years typically come with equally stiff cap charges.
http://capgeek.com/f...-recapture-work

#30 Eleven

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:48 AM

View PostLanny, on 15 June 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Saw something that said in order to use a compliance buyout on a player that player has to pass through waivers first. Which, if Ehrhoff is claimed on waivers (I assume he would be) the Sabres would then be on the hook for the full recapture penalty they'd be looking to avoid with the buyout. If they're looking to reduce the risk of the recapture penalty the only option for Ehrhoff is to keep him.


http://capgeek.com/f...-recapture-work

He could cooperate and block the waiver, because he has a no movement clause.  It would be well worth it for him.  He gets major bucks from the Sabres and then picks where he goes for more major bucks.

#31 Tankalicious

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:14 AM

View PostEleven, on 15 June 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:



He could cooperate and block the waiver, because he has a no movement clause.  It would be well worth it for him.  He gets major bucks from the Sabres and then picks where he goes for more major bucks.

Isn't his modified? Would he be able to block waivers with a modified no-trade-clause?

#32 Tankalicious

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:25 AM

Minnesota is reportedly looking to unload Backstrom so that might be another option for a buyout.

#33 Lanny

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

I think it'd have to be a no move clause to block waivers, I'm not sure what he has.

Edited by Lanny, 15 June 2014 - 11:54 AM.


#34 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 12:05 PM

If this is the case, wouldn't the Sabres have first dibs on anybody getting bought out?

#35 Tankalicious

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 12:18 PM

He has a modified no-trade clause.

#36 beerme1

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:27 PM

View PostJJFIVEOH, on 14 June 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

With the exception of the last quarter of the season when he was stuck picking up everybody elses slack because half the roster wasn't capable of playing at an NHL level, he has been a professional. He never went through the motions, he usually looked like he enjoyed being there (whether he actually did or not) and there was very little on the roster to compliment his strengths. If he wants to go, get him out. If he hasn't made mention of being traded I don't see why it would be a priority. I doubt there was a D-man in the league last year that played so many minutes and had to cover for so many inadequacies of everybody else around him.

What defensive veterans? Myers? Weber? Weber is a borderline NHL D-man and Myers hasn't proven anything yet. A short stretch of games does not make up for the last 3 years of underachievements. Ehrhoff is the very least of this teams concerns.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

I get your points. I was thinking of free agent pick up or someone coming back in a trade.
I respect your opinion and I also have one. Or maybe the veteran guy could be McBain. :w00t:

#37 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:08 PM

View Postbeerme1, on 15 June 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

I get your points. I was thinking of free agent pick up or someone coming back in a trade.
I respect your opinion and I also have one. Or maybe the veteran guy could be McBain. :w00t:

That's not funny. :lol:

#38 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 11:05 AM

Dallas didn't wait. Aaron Rome on waivers today for the purpose of being bought out.

#39 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 11:11 AM

@TSNBobMcKenzie

Buyout period started 12:01 a.m. today. Player must be waived to be bought out unless he has NMC, in which case it can occur w/o waivers.

#40 d4rksabre

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 11:17 AM

So does Leino HAVE to be placed on waivers today? Or does he have a NMC?