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Sabres better off than I thought....


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#1 CallawaySabres

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:57 AM

With the youth already in the system, the draft picks in waiting, along with what seems to be a capable GM and coach, I believe the Sabres are far better off than many teams out there. I would rather be in Buffalo's position over any of those teams below and in a year or 2, that list will hopefully grow quite a bit. The darkest days are behind folks, I have no doubt about that. Can you imagine if Grigorenko actually pans out? It's fun to at least think about after this draft........

Toronto
Ottawa
Florida
Carolina
Islanders
Winnipeg
Nashville
Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton

Edited by CallawaySabres, 02 April 2014 - 10:21 AM.


#2 Claude_Verret

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:16 AM

Agreed, the decision one year ago to tank and staying the course looks, at this point, to have been a very wise one indeed.

#3 inkman

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

View PostClaude_Verret, on 02 April 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Agreed, the decision one year ago to tank and staying the course looks, at this point, to have been a very wise one indeed.
Minus the fact that they should already have Nathan McKininnen

#4 HopefulFuture

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:15 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say the darkest days are behind us, were at the low point though. It's all going to come down to the pipeline and next 2 draft class picks. Can they form the necessary chemistry along with translating their individual skill sets to the pro level?

Time will bare the answer out, but the corner they need to turn is on sight.

#5 qwksndmonster

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:25 AM

View Postinkman, on 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Minus the fact that they should already have Nathan McKininnen
Darcy couldn't even tank right.  "I'll just sell off our best players 2 a year instead of all at once so in 3 years we'll be finishing our slow decent to get a top pick."

#6 SabresBillsFan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:29 AM

View Postinkman, on 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Minus the fact that they should already have Nathan McKininnen

I agree. Those meaningless runs late in the season sealed our crappy pick.

#7 Neuvirths Glove

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:32 AM

View PostHopefulFuture, on 02 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Can they form the necessary chemistry along with translating their individual skill sets to the pro level?

Two words:  Ted.  Nolan.

#8 SabresBillsFan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostHopefulFuture, on 02 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say the darkest days are behind us, were at the low point though. It's all going to come down to the pipeline and next 2 draft class picks. Can they form the necessary chemistry along with translating their individual skill sets to the pro level?

Time will bare the answer out, but the corner they need to turn is on sight.

I agree I wouldn't go that far just yet saying we are better off than these other teams. I'm not sold on some of the players we picked the previous drafts. Grigo and Armia seem to have potential but I don't see Grigo in the top 6 because of his skating. And Armia it's too early to tell.

#9 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:05 PM

One more bad year of being good at being bad.  Then we get bad at being good, and end up bad, which is expected.   And although we'll be worse than better that second year, we'll be better than worse.  Which isn't good, but it's not bad.  Then from there, I expect better and better not worse and worse, or else it'll be really really bad and no good at all.

#10 dudacek

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:06 PM

Grigo is a year younger than Armia and has played in the NHL. Armia has been a mediocre AHL rookie.


#11 CallawaySabres

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:12 PM

View PostHopefulFuture, on 02 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say the darkest days are behind us, were at the low point though. It's all going to come down to the pipeline and next 2 draft class picks. Can they form the necessary chemistry along with translating their individual skill sets to the pro level?

Time will bare the answer out, but the corner they need to turn is on sight.

I can say with much confidence that in my lifetime, I will never see a more incompetent lineup than the one I see now. To me, that means the darkest days are DEFINITELY behind us. Not having Miller and Vanek in limbo anymore combined with players like Leino, McBain, Ellis and D'agostini being gone, yes - darkest days behind. They may not be good next year but at least we can watch the future of this team grow together while adding some pieces.

#12 nfreeman

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:36 PM

Well, I'd like to feel confident that the Sabres have hit bottom and are now ascendant, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that that would involve relying on a number of key assumptions:

1.  Tim Murray will do a good job in identifying talent.

2.  A sufficient number of the prospects already in the system (Risto, Nikita, Pysyk, Rudy, McCabe, Compher, Fasching, Carrier, Deslauriers, Armia, Griggy, Zemgus, Baptiste, etc.) will develop into good NHL players.

3.  A sufficient number of the Sabres' draft picks in 2014 and 2015 develop into good NHL players.

4.  Continued improvement -- and no backsliding -- from Myers.

5.  Getting good goaltending out of Enroth/Neuvirth/one of the kids.

Based on what we know -- not what we think/hope -- each of those 5 assumptions could prove out, or each of them could fail.

I also think that TM needs to get some better players in here this summer, because another season like this one is likely to negatively affect factors 2 - 5 above.

#13 Claude_Verret

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:43 PM

View Postinkman, on 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Minus the fact that they should already have Nathan McKininnen

I have no doubt in my mind that MacKinnon was the target when they decided to trade Pominville last year, but alas the remaining core plus castoffs had one more run to nowhere in them.  Nabbing MacKinnon last year shifts the tank timeline by one full season, which is why you saw such a concerted effort to tank the right way from day one of this season.

View Postqwksndmonster, on 02 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Darcy couldn't even tank right.  "I'll just sell off our best players 2 a year instead of all at once so in 3 years we'll be finishing our slow decent to get a top pick."

True, but I can't be mad at DR for the eventual Vanek return at all.  

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 02 April 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

One more bad year of being good at being bad.  Then we get bad at being good, and end up bad, which is expected.   And although we'll be worse than better that second year, we'll be better than worse.  Which isn't good, but it's not bad.  Then from there, I expect better and better not worse and worse, or else it'll be really really bad and no good at all.

Bravo for so concisely capturing the mission statement of Tank Nation.

#14 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 02 April 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Well, I'd like to feel confident that the Sabres have hit bottom and are now ascendant, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that that would involve relying on a number of key assumptions:

1.  Tim Murray will do a good job in identifying talent.

2.  A sufficient number of the prospects already in the system (Risto, Nikita, Pysyk, Rudy, McCabe, Compher, Fasching, Carrier, Deslauriers, Armia, Griggy, Zemgus, Baptiste, etc.) will develop into good NHL players.

3.  A sufficient number of the Sabres' draft picks in 2014 and 2015 develop into good NHL players.

4.  Continued improvement -- and no backsliding -- from Myers.

5.  Getting good goaltending out of Enroth/Neuvirth/one of the kids.

Based on what we know -- not what we think/hope -- each of those 5 assumptions could prove out, or each of them could fail.

I also think that TM needs to get some better players in here this summer, because another season like this one is likely to negatively affect factors 2 - 5 above.

all 5 of those assumptions could fail, and we could still ice a better roster than we currently have. The team has hit rock bottom.

Your assumptions are what is required for this team to be a good team, not a better team.

#15 CallawaySabres

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:00 PM

Top 2 draft pick (possibly 2 in the top 5) this year
Pysyk
Risto
Zadorov
Probably Grigs

This alone, with ZERO other additions make this team not only better, but a whole heck of a lot more fun to watch. There will be plenty of growing pains but my goodness, they could not POSSIBLY be as boring as there are right now.

Boring = Rock Bottom to me

#16 SabresBillsFan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostCallawaySabres, on 02 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Top 2 draft pick (possibly 2 in the top 5) this year
Pysyk
Risto
Zadorov
Probably Grigs

This alone, with ZERO other additions make this team not only better, but a whole heck of a lot more fun to watch. There will be plenty of growing pains but my goodness, they could not POSSIBLY be as boring as there are right now.

Boring = Rock Bottom to me

I agree with that but you have to remember these guys ain't going to be rushed anymore. I don't think Nolan wants a team with 5 rookies on them.

#17 dudacek

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

View PostCallawaySabres, on 02 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Top 2 draft pick (possibly 2 in the top 5) this year
Pysyk
Risto
Zadorov
Probably Grigs

This alone, with ZERO other additions make this team not only better, but a whole heck of a lot more fun to watch. There will be plenty of growing pains but my goodness, they could not POSSIBLY be as boring as there are right now.

Boring = Rock Bottom to me

This. We watched a good AHL team for most of the year, playing against teams that expected to beat them and played accordingly.
Watching that night after night, you couldn't help but get numb.
But reinforcements are coming.
They may not win many more games, but they will at least have nights where they look like they could.
There will be times next year when it won't feel like it, but the darkest days are over.

#18 LGR4GM

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:03 PM

I want to believe we are turning the corner but until next year starts I don't think we will know for sure. Risto, Pysyk, Myers, McCabe, Grigorenko etc... these guys will have to prove themselves at the NHL level in some way before I will say we are better off.  Patience, I have been fooled once by this team and refuse to again.

#19 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:07 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 02 April 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

I want to believe we are turning the corner but until next year starts I don't think we will know for sure. Risto, Pysyk, Myers, McCabe, Grigorenko etc... these guys will have to prove themselves at the NHL level in some way before I will say we are better off.  Patience, I have been fooled once by this team and refuse to again.

Yes.  Hesitation to say "we've hit rock bottom" or "we're at a turning point" or "now we start to improve" is entirely warranted.  Until we have bodies on the ice that are developed and capable of playing in this league, we're not going anywhere.  There's no bottom, there's no turning, there's no improving.  Not yet.  And seeing as how some of the kids in the system that are supposed to help save us haven't really even begun to play and develop their pro game, it could be quite a while until we start taking real, measurable steps forward in the performance of this team.  On top of that, because we're already looking forward to maximizing our 2015 1st rounder, it could easily be a long, dark winter in Sabre Nation.

So embrace it. Enjoy watching the kids grow up.  Know every loss could net us better players.

Or don't.  Stew about the team.  Get really miserable.

#20 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:42 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 02 April 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes.  Hesitation to say "we've hit rock bottom" or "we're at a turning point" or "now we start to improve" is entirely warranted.  Until we have bodies on the ice that are developed and capable of playing in this league, we're not going anywhere.  There's no bottom, there's no turning, there's no improving.  Not yet.  And seeing as how some of the kids in the system that are supposed to help save us haven't really even begun to play and develop their pro game, it could be quite a while until we start taking real, measurable steps forward in the performance of this team.  On top of that, because we're already looking forward to maximizing our 2015 1st rounder, it could easily be a long, dark winter in Sabre Nation.

So embrace it. Enjoy watching the kids grow up.  Know every loss could net us better players.

Or don't.  Stew about the team.  Get really miserable.

Some optimists were able to talk themselves into believing this was a fringe playoff team. I'd like to think some of the same optimists will be able to talk themselves into the idea that this year or next we're going to draft Azor Ahai reborn to end the long winter!

#21 nfreeman

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:07 PM

View PostCallawaySabres, on 02 April 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Top 2 draft pick (possibly 2 in the top 5) this year
Pysyk
Risto
Zadorov
Probably Grigs

This alone, with ZERO other additions make this team not only better, but a whole heck of a lot more fun to watch. There will be plenty of growing pains but my goodness, they could not POSSIBLY be as boring as there are right now.

Boring = Rock Bottom to me

I agree on the boring part, but I think you are expecting too much from the kids next year.

There is NFW that Griggy is in Buffalo next year for more than a cup of coffee.

I would also expect the top draft choice to go back to juniors next year.

And I don't think more than 1 of Risto, Pysyk and Nikita will be in Buffalo for a majority of the season next year.

View PostLGR4GM, on 02 April 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

I want to believe we are turning the corner but until next year starts I don't think we will know for sure. Risto, Pysyk, Myers, McCabe, Grigorenko etc... these guys will have to prove themselves at the NHL level in some way before I will say we are better off.  Patience, I have been fooled once by this team and refuse to again.

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 02 April 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes.  Hesitation to say "we've hit rock bottom" or "we're at a turning point" or "now we start to improve" is entirely warranted.  Until we have bodies on the ice that are developed and capable of playing in this league, we're not going anywhere.  There's no bottom, there's no turning, there's no improving.  Not yet.  And seeing as how some of the kids in the system that are supposed to help save us haven't really even begun to play and develop their pro game, it could be quite a while until we start taking real, measurable steps forward in the performance of this team.  On top of that, because we're already looking forward to maximizing our 2015 1st rounder, it could easily be a long, dark winter in Sabre Nation.

So embrace it. Enjoy watching the kids grow up.  Know every loss could net us better players.

Or don't.  Stew about the team.  Get really miserable.

These.

#22 Bob Malooga

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:01 PM

Some of these teams have a hell of a prospect pool that certainly compares to Buffalo's...and a couple have much more!
(Disclaimer: Each team's prospects are not listed in any specific order.)

Panthers - Huberdeau, Barkov, Pirri, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Kulikov, Robak, Shore, Howden, Trocheck, Petrovic, McCoshen, Matheson, Olson, Clapperton.

Oilers - Hall, Ebele, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov, Schultz, Nurse, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Lander, Slepysev, Brossoit.

Calgary - Monahan, Gaudreau, Granlund, Backlund, Galiardi, Byron, Hanowski, Colborne, Baertschi, Reinhart, Knight, Poirier, Agostino, Brodie, Klimchuk, Kanzig, Olivier-Roy, Jankowski, Bouma, Aliu, Gillies.

NYI - Tavares, Okposo, Grabner, Strome, Lee, Reinhart, Pulock, Martin, Bailey, Halmo, Hamonic, Nelson, Donovan, Williams, McAdam, Cizikas, Pokka, Mayfield, Ullstrom, Poulin, Nilsson.

Ottawa - Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Lazar, Puempel, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, Gryba, Smith, Grant, Lehner, Ceci, Hogberg, Dunn, Karlsson, Borowiecki, Wiercioch,.

Toronto - Bernier, Van-Riemsdyk, Kadri, Reilly, Leivo, Ashton, McKegg, Gauthier, Finn, Percy, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Gibson.

Carolina - Skinner, Stall, Faulk, Lindholm, Murray, Bowman, Nash, Loktionov, McGinn, Biega, Rask, DiGiuseppe, Pesce, Tolchinsky.

Winnipeg - Kane, Scheifele, Trouba, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Peluso, Ellebe, Tangradi, Postma, Halischuk, O'Dell, Wright, Hutchinson, Morrisey, Petan, Lowry, Comrie, Hellebuyck, Kasdorf, Samuels-Thomas, Copp, Stoykewych.

Nashville - Jones, Forsberg, Del Zotto, Josi, Diaby, Jarnkrok, Sissons, Girard, Veilleux, Aberg, Watson, Beck, Ekholm, Wilson, Smith, Bourque, Spaling.

Vancouver - Markstrom, Lack, Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, Corrado, Matthias, Labate, Hutton, Subban, Blain, Erickson, Dalpe, Welsh, Weber, Tanev, Stanton, Zalewski.


Ok, now...these are not all "prospects" by definition, but every one of them is 25 years of age or younger. A couple of teams are probably on par with the Sabres, but quite a few have at least one prospect who is better than anything the Sabres have. On top of that, a few of them have an elite goaltending prospect, as well as already established players who are top-line all-stars. The Sabres have neither of those things. So, I would not say we are much further ahead of any of these teams, if any of them at all. I think every one of those teams have at least one prospect, that is better than anything the Sabres have.

I understand we have prospects who could turn out to be great players, but they have nobody around them like these teams do...that is my point, as well as the fact that some of these other players were drafted after Buffalo's pick...and they rate higher than our prospects we drafted.

I just wouldn't automatically say we are ahead of those teams...because knowing quite a few of those prospects, from those teams...those teams listed above have quite a promising future if everything goes as planned, and these kids pan out with the right coaching/chemistry.

(I REALLY like what Calgary is doing.)

Edited by Bob Malooga, 02 April 2014 - 06:12 PM.


#23 WildCard

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:29 PM

I few of those aren't prospects though: Tavares, Nugent-Hopkins, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, Shultz, Kassian, Skinner, Okposo, Karlsson, Kadri....there's too many to keep listing. I think there's a difference between prospects and a core of players.

I read your definition of prospects, but I disagree that these teams are better off than the Sabres even if you take them into account. Most of them have their best prospects already on the ice, and they haven't produced. Vancouver is old, and they are basically where the Sabres were two seasons ago; rebuild hasn'tquite stared yet, and it can't with Kessler and the Sedins there, but it will very soon. If they don't make the playoffs within the next two-three season, I expect that core to be imploded and shipped off

The Oilers have had that core for a few seasons now, and there hasn't been any improvement. I expect nothing from Yakupov, probably a lesser Hossa at best. Hall is good, and so is Eberle and RNH, but they have no d-men, and just now got a decent goalie. They might, might, be in line for a playoff spot next year, but that depends on if they get Ekblad, how good he is, and what they do in the offseason.

Winnipeg: If your most promising player is a punk winger like Evander Kane, then you're in trouble (see the Capitals)

Nashville; They're a good team, but when a d-man leads your team in goals, that's never a good sign. IMHO, the Preds lost out a few seasons ago when they failed to go far with Suter, Goose, and Weber. I don't think they'll be that good again for awhile, not with how good and young the rest of the west is.

Calgary: I'll admit I don't know much about them

NYI: I'll be more impressed if Okposo can repeat this performance. They're already missing out on what is increasingly likely a top 5 pick, add that to the ownership issues and their terrible defense and goal-tending I'd be really surprised if the Islanders aren't bad-mediocre for the next three seasons. I still think Tavares leaves that team too

Edited by WildCard, 02 April 2014 - 06:44 PM.


#24 Numark

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:29 PM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Some of these teams have a hell of a prospect pool that certainly compares to Buffalo's...and a couple have much more!
(Disclaimer: Each team's prospects are not listed in any specific order.)

Panthers - Huberdeau, Barkov, Pirri, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Kulikov, Robak, Shore, Howden, Trocheck, Petrovic, McCoshen, Matheson, Olson, Clapperton.

Oilers - Hall, Ebele, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov, Schultz, Nurse, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Lander, Slepysev, Brossoit.

Calgary - Monahan, Gaudreau, Granlund, Backlund, Galiardi, Byron, Hanowski, Colborne, Baertschi, Reinhart, Knight, Poirier, Agostino, Brodie, Klimchuk, Kanzig, Olivier-Roy, Jankowski, Bouma, Aliu, Gillies.

NYI - Tavares, Okposo, Grabner, Strome, Lee, Reinhart, Pulock, Martin, Bailey, Halmo, Hamonic, Nelson, Donovan, Williams, McAdam, Cizikas, Pokka, Mayfield, Ullstrom, Poulin, Nilsson.

Ottawa - Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Lazar, Puempel, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, Gryba, Smith, Grant, Lehner, Ceci, Hogberg, Dunn, Karlsson, Borowiecki, Wiercioch,.

Toronto - Bernier, Van-Riemsdyk, Kadri, Reilly, Leivo, Ashton, McKegg, Gauthier, Finn, Percy, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Gibson.

Carolina - Skinner, Stall, Faulk, Lindholm, Murray, Bowman, Nash, Loktionov, McGinn, Biega, Rask, DiGiuseppe, Pesce, Tolchinsky.

Winnipeg - Kane, Scheifele, Trouba, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Peluso, Ellebe, Tangradi, Postma, Halischuk, O'Dell, Wright, Hutchinson, Morrisey, Petan, Lowry, Comrie, Hellebuyck, Kasdorf, Samuels-Thomas, Copp, Stoykewych.

Nashville - Jones, Forsberg, Del Zotto, Josi, Diaby, Jarnkrok, Sissons, Girard, Veilleux, Aberg, Watson, Beck, Ekholm, Wilson, Smith, Bourque, Spaling.

Vancouver - Markstrom, Lack, Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, Corrado, Matthias, Labate, Hutton, Subban, Blain, Erickson, Dalpe, Welsh, Weber, Tanev, Stanton, Zalewski.


Ok, now...these are not all "prospects" by definition, but every one of them is 25 years of age or younger. A couple of teams are probably on par with the Sabres, but quite a few have at least one prospect who is better than anything the Sabres have. On top of that, a few of them have an elite goaltending prospect, as well as already established players who are top-line all-stars. The Sabres have neither of those things. So, I would not say we are much further ahead of any of these teams, if any of them at all. I think every one of those teams have at least one prospect, that is better than anything the Sabres have.

I understand we have prospects who could turn out to be great players, but they have nobody around them like these teams do...that is my point, as well as the fact that some of these other players were drafted after Buffalo's pick...and they rate higher than our prospects we drafted.

I just wouldn't automatically say we are ahead of those teams...because knowing quite a few of those prospects, from those teams...those teams listed above have quite a promising future if everything goes as planned, and these kids pan out with the right coaching/chemistry.

(I REALLY like what Calgary is doing.)

Most of those players wouldn't meet anyone's definition of a prospect (some of those players are in tl their 5th nhl season...).  Sabres definitely have a top 3 prospect pool, arguably the best.

Edited by Numark, 02 April 2014 - 06:32 PM.


#25 Moulson26

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

View Postinkman, on 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Minus the fact that they should already have Nathan McKininnen

I guess. But you can go through every draft and "re-draft". He's a heck of a player, but if we drafted him, we'd miss out on Risto, and the following year wouldn't have finished dead last and missed out on Ekblad, and next thing you know is we're creeping into the next Edmonton Oilers.


View Postqwksndmonster, on 02 April 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Darcy couldn't even tank right.  "I'll just sell off our best players 2 a year instead of all at once so in 3 years we'll be finishing our slow decent to get a top pick."

He got a first rd pick for Thomas Vanek. Among many other big pieces of the future puzzle. Not a fan of the Darcy regime, but he has set Murray up nicely.

View PostNumark, on 02 April 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Most of those players wouldn't meet anyone's definition of a prospect (some of those players are in tl their 5th nhl season...).  Sabres definitely have a top 3 prospect pool, arguably the best.

I agree. And if they are not the best, the fact of having 3-4 first round picks next two drafts surely will put them over the top and even separate themselves from the 2nd best pool.

#26 inkman

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

View PostLoyalty, on 02 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:



I guess. But you can go through every draft and "re-draft". He's a heck of a player, but if we drafted him, we'd miss out on Risto, and the following year wouldn't have finished dead last and missed out on Ekblad, and next thing you know is we're creeping into the next Edmonton Oilers.
I'm not one of those could have should have losers.  I'm mearly stating if Darcy had started the tank properly, we would have moved Miller or Vanek sooner and had the first pick instead of wherever they drafted Risto.

#27 wjag

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:13 PM

If this isn't rock bottom, then I can't define or even imagine what is.

I still think they doffed too many veterans.  The rebuild is going to be a slog.

#28 Bob Malooga

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:25 PM

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.

And I also never argued Buffalo's standing in the "prospect rankings." I have stated numerous times, they are the #1 prospect pool in the NHL...but again, that has zero to do with the original post, or my original comment.

One more thing...if they are behind in the "prospect" area, they sure are ahead in building a team of quality prospects around the quality players they already have. ALL of those teams have a "superstar," or at least one VERY close...Buffalo has zero.

Edited by Bob Malooga, 02 April 2014 - 07:31 PM.


#29 WildCard

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:27 PM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.
I'd be very interested to see what the rest of this board thinks in regards to Vancouver being "way further ahead" than the Sabres

#30 Numark

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.

And I also never argued Buffalo's standing in the "prospect rankings." I have stated numerous times, they are the #1 prospect pool in the NHL...but again, that has zero to do with the original post, or my original comment.

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Some of these teams have a hell of a prospect pool that certainly compares to Buffalo's...and a couple have much more!
(Disclaimer: Each team's prospects are not listed in any specific order.)

Panthers - Huberdeau, Barkov, Pirri, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Kulikov, Robak, Shore, Howden, Trocheck, Petrovic, McCoshen, Matheson, Olson, Clapperton.

Oilers - Hall, Ebele, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov, Schultz, Nurse, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Lander, Slepysev, Brossoit.

Calgary - Monahan, Gaudreau, Granlund, Backlund, Galiardi, Byron, Hanowski, Colborne, Baertschi, Reinhart, Knight, Poirier, Agostino, Brodie, Klimchuk, Kanzig, Olivier-Roy, Jankowski, Bouma, Aliu, Gillies.

NYI - Tavares, Okposo, Grabner, Strome, Lee, Reinhart, Pulock, Martin, Bailey, Halmo, Hamonic, Nelson, Donovan, Williams, McAdam, Cizikas, Pokka, Mayfield, Ullstrom, Poulin, Nilsson.

Ottawa - Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Lazar, Puempel, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, Gryba, Smith, Grant, Lehner, Ceci, Hogberg, Dunn, Karlsson, Borowiecki, Wiercioch,.

Toronto - Bernier, Van-Riemsdyk, Kadri, Reilly, Leivo, Ashton, McKegg, Gauthier, Finn, Percy, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Gibson.

Carolina - Skinner, Stall, Faulk, Lindholm, Murray, Bowman, Nash, Loktionov, McGinn, Biega, Rask, DiGiuseppe, Pesce, Tolchinsky.

Winnipeg - Kane, Scheifele, Trouba, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Peluso, Ellebe, Tangradi, Postma, Halischuk, O'Dell, Wright, Hutchinson, Morrisey, Petan, Lowry, Comrie, Hellebuyck, Kasdorf, Samuels-Thomas, Copp, Stoykewych.

Nashville - Jones, Forsberg, Del Zotto, Josi, Diaby, Jarnkrok, Sissons, Girard, Veilleux, Aberg, Watson, Beck, Ekholm, Wilson, Smith, Bourque, Spaling.

Vancouver - Markstrom, Lack, Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, Corrado, Matthias, Labate, Hutton, Subban, Blain, Erickson, Dalpe, Welsh, Weber, Tanev, Stanton, Zalewski.


are you sure you didnt call these players "prospects" and compare them to our "prospect pool?"  This may be going over my head, but it looks like thats exactly what you did.  It's no biggie, i just saw your original post and you called a list of players prospects and i stated most of them arent prospects

Edited by Numark, 02 April 2014 - 07:32 PM.


#31 Bob Malooga

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostWildCard, on 02 April 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Winnipeg: If your most promising player is a punk winger like Evander Kane, then you're in trouble (see the Capitals)
If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)

View PostNumark, on 02 April 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

are you sure you didnt call these players "prospects" and compare them to our "prospect pool?"  This may be going over my head, but it looks like thats exactly what you did.  It's no biggie, i just saw your original post and you called a list of players prospects and i stated most of them arent prospects
No, I actually got my information from doing some lengthy research on the "prospect" websites.

Just because you (or I) don't know their names, or haven't seen them play much...means absolutely nothing.

And again, my entire point is the fact that these teams were labeled as being behind Buffalo...but each one has a REAL LEGIT PROSPECT (18-20) years old, that is better than ANYONE the Sabres currently have on their team, in Rochester, or playing elsewhere...THAT is my point.

Also, just because we have decent prospects doesn't mean they will end up doing anything without players around them who came make them better and help them transition...like a Kane, Tavares, Stall, Cammalarri, Kesler, Weber, etc...elite prospects have players like that around them.

If not a single person can understand the point I am trying to get across here, then I give up and apologize...goodnight.


***Last thing...somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?

I am on board with the tank, I love our prospects...but I also try to be as realistic as possible, we are no further ahead of anyone *right now*.

Edited by Bob Malooga, 02 April 2014 - 07:49 PM.


#32 drnkirishone

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:50 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 02 April 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Some optimists were able to talk themselves into believing this was a fringe playoff team. I'd like to think some of the same optimists will be able to talk themselves into the idea that this year or next we're going to draft Azor Ahai reborn to end the long winter!
yes I was one of the optimists and I won't apologize for being one. when the cold wind of the north sends its sign that winter is coming and hockey is to begin my optimism is renewed. When the long night ends my sabres will be holding the holiest of holy cups high over their heads and it shall be known that Zadorov became Azor Ahai reborn by plunging his hockey stick into the heart of Taro Tsujimoto and saving us from the Others (bruins)

#33 WildCard

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)
He has one 30 goal season, which also happens to be is only 20 goal season as well and he comes with a bevy of personal issues. I'd take Hodgson and Girgensons over him, and I'm sure Ennis and Stafford can at least get a whiff of his jock. Plus, both of the Sabres 1st round picks the next two years will, in all likelihood, be much better than Kane.

Edited by WildCard, 02 April 2014 - 07:54 PM.


#34 Bob Malooga

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:55 PM

View PostWildCard, on 02 April 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:


I'd be very interested to see what the rest of this board thinks in regards to Vancouver being "way further ahead" than the Sabres
Lack, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Markstrom, Jensen, Schroeder, Corrado, Gaunce, Matthias, Subban, Weber, Tanev, Kassian...

Kelser, Edler, Bieksa and the Sedins as trade-bait next year if need be...I would say Vancouver is in pretty darn good shape.

Coaching wise? No, probably not.

View PostWildCard, on 02 April 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:


He has one 30 goal season, which also happens to be is only 20 goal season as well and he comes with a bevy of personal issues. I'd take Hodgson and Girgensons over him, and I'm sure Ennis and Stafford can at least get a whiff of his jock. Plus, both of the Sabres 1st round picks the next two years will, in all likelihood, be much better than Kane.
He is the only player (currently) on his team who has any skill, he has no linemates to feed him the puck or vice-versa.

If that kid got traded to Buffalo, you're telling me you wouldn't be excited? He'd instantly be our best player.

Edited by Bob Malooga, 02 April 2014 - 07:56 PM.


#35 WildCard

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:09 PM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

Lack, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Markstrom, Jensen, Schroeder, Corrado, Gaunce, Matthias, Subban, Weber, Tanev, Kassian...

Kelser, Edler, Bieksa and the Sedins as trade-bait next year if need be...I would say Vancouver is in pretty darn good shape.

Coaching wise? No, probably not.


He is the only player (currently) on his team who has any skill, he has no linemates to feed him the puck or vice-versa.

If that kid got traded to Buffalo, you're telling me you wouldn't be excited? He'd instantly be our best player.
Sedins are both 33, and have been getting hurt lately. Kessler, Burrows, and Higgins are all about to hit 30. They're four best players, by far and away, are getting older, quickly. And Kessler was recently the talk of a very hot trade rumor mill. I would take where we are over the Canucks time and again right now. They're just starting to fall down the hill, at least we're finally starting to climb back up it
.

Kane has Wheeler, Ladd, and Little to feed him to him the puck, two of which are better than Kane. They're not young though, so I didn't consider them their best "player prospect" under the age of 25. Would I want Kane? Not a chance in hell, for the same reason many people on this board wouldn't want Ovechkin.

#36 HopefulFuture

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:24 PM

View Postwjag, on 02 April 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

If this isn't rock bottom, then I can't define or even imagine what is.

I still think they doffed too many veterans.  The rebuild is going to be a slog.

Not necessarily. The projected expectation should have always touted honesty within the final analasys

4 yo 5 years is where the number projects given the unknowns with so many variables. It's nice to believe in short turn arounds, but fans should temper that with a commitment towards ensuring it succeeds and in Buffalo's case those numbers appear more in the realm of reality.

#37 dudacek

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:27 PM

Using Bob's 25-and-under model, my perception of what the hockey community thinks of player ceilings based on a lot of reading and very little actual scouting: It's no competition between Buffalo and Vancouver, especially when you look at the sheer number of prospects Buffalo has  

   Projected elite forwards
Buffalo: none   
Vancouver: none

  Projected top pairing defencemen
Buffalo: Myers, Ristolainen, Zadorov
Vancouver: none

Projected top-six forwards
Buffalo: Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno, Girgensons, Grigorenko, Armia, Compher, Fasching
Vancouver: Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen

Projected top four defencemen
Buffalo: Pysyk, McCabe
Vancouver: Tanev

  Potential starting NHL goalies
Buffalo: Enroth
Vancouver: Markstrom

  Potential NHL regular forwards
Buffalo: Flynn, Conacher, Deslauriers, Larsson, Hurley, Bailey, Baptiste, Carrier, Possler,Catenacci
Vancouver: Gaunce, Schroeder, Cassels, Grenier, Dalpe

  Potential NHL regular defencemen
Buffalo: Ruhwedel
Vancouver: Stanton, Corrado, Weber

  Potential NHL goalies
Buffalo: Ullmark, Hackett
Vancouver:Ericsson

Matthias and Lack are actually 26, but if you really want to include them, so are Neuvirth and Chris Stewart.

Some of those other teams have some pretty impressive lists, as do some you didn't include.
But the Floridas and Colorados are a few years ahead of us in tanking.

I doubt there is a GM in the world that would take Vancouver's prospect list over ours.
And that's not even counting the number of high picks coming in the next two years.

Edited by dudacek, 02 April 2014 - 10:40 PM.


#38 Andrew Amerk

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:05 AM

1. Is everyone just done with Luke Adam at this point? Career AHLer? He's still only 23.

2. Disappointed that Armia's skills haven't translated over to North America yet. Although, no one drafted after Armia in that draft other than Saad has really been impactful yet.

3. Larsson has been pretty good in Rochester this year. He tends to get left out of these "prospect discussions." I am hoping to see him blossom on the Sabres roster next year.

4. Grigs...I am thinking that he is going to turn a corner and become a decent NHL player, it's only a matter of time. He just needs some stability and a mentor.

5. The possibility of a goalie log-jam wasnt something that I ever saw coming. Out of Enroth Neuvirth Lieuwen Hackett Makarov, competition will be fierce. SOMEONE has to be able to become a strong number 1 out of all of this, right???

#39 LGR4GM

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:24 AM

View PostBob Malooga, on 02 April 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

1) If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)


No, I actually got my information from doing some lengthy research on the "prospect" websites.

2) Just because you (or I) don't know their names, or haven't seen them play much...means absolutely nothing.

3) And again, my entire point is the fact that these teams were labeled as being behind Buffalo...but each one has a REAL LEGIT PROSPECT (18-20) years old, that is better than ANYONE the Sabres currently have on their team, in Rochester, or playing elsewhere...THAT is my point.

Also, just because we have decent prospects doesn't mean they will end up doing anything without players around them who came make them better and help them transition...like a Kane, Tavares, Stall, Cammalarri, Kesler, Weber, etc...elite prospects have players like that around them.

4) If not a single person can understand the point I am trying to get across here, then I give up and apologize...goodnight.


***Last thing...somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?
1) Tyler Ennis can kick evander kane's lazy jock strap up and down the ice.  Zemgus Girgensons can in time as well. Evander Kane is the perfect example of talent without heart.  Also Kane is 22 soon to turn 23. He was a 4th overall pick.  We have not drafted close to that high since Thomas Vanek in 2003.  JT Compher, Gustav Possler, and maybe Hudson Fasching all could equal Kane's 17-20goals a season given time. Ready I will make a bold prediciton, Nicolas Baptiste will be better than Evander Kane in time... I could be wrong but at least Baptiste has the heart.

2) True.

3) Please show me Vancouver's legit 18-20yr old prospect who is better than anyone the Sabres have.  They have Hunter Shinkaruk and Bo Horvat as their best forward prospects.  We have Girgensons, Compher, Grigorenko just off the top of my head.  So that is a pretty close matchup for now, even though it does not take into account this years draft.  Now lets look at defense because defense wins championships.

Corrado, Blain, Tommernes versus Ristolainen, Zadorov, McCabe.  Corrado and Risto match up decently if you don't count that Risto is 2 years younger and 3" 20lbs bigger with more offensive upside.  McCabe and Blain... well Blain is okay, a lot of talk of his need for better positioning but he is physical.  McCabe is stunningly sound defensively and has been a leader for just about every team he has played for.  So yea I'd take McCabe.  Now the fun part... you wanted a Prospect better than anyone and I have 2 words, Nikita Zadorov.  Go watch his highlights.  He makes anyone the Nucks have in their defensive pipeline laughable.  At this stage I would take him over Shinkaruk and Horvat.  Zadorov has all the potential to be an ELITE Defender in the NHL. He hits, is mobile, makes great passes, is calm under pressure, scores, and is a leader.

4) I understand your point.  My problem is your point is wrong and ignore a bevy of facts that include what is or is not a prospect and the fact that some of the teams you are touting as superior have recently had more than 1 top 5 draft pick.  Florida, Edmonton, NYI so no wonder they have really great young guys.


Last to your 5th year player point. I am not going to do the research because I don't care to however the Sabres started their full on rebuild in 2012 when they traded for Hodgson and drafted Girgensons and Grigorenko.  That was 2 years ago.  Before that we were video scouting and dishing out picks for shots at a playoff spot.  The Sabres had 1 2nd round pick between 2008 and 2011 and that was Luke Adam.  Since 2008 all of our 1st round picks have seen time in the NHL, Ennis, Myers, Kassian, Pysyk, Girgensons and technically Grigorenko.  The only exception is Joel Armia.  So I am not sure what point you are trying to make with "somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?", but I can tell you that you are flat out wrong because we have plenty of players who have "sniffed" the NHL. My question to you is how many of those players you are so high on from other teams were drafted in rounds 1-3?  Your argument is invalid because you didn't bother to understand the history of the draft in those years or where players were selected.  If Vancouver selected 2 players in the 1st round and 2 players in the 2nd round every year for 3-4 years 5-7 years ago I would expect them to have a ton of guys in the NHL now that they drafted.  Finally you say we have a ton of players who haven't sniffed the NHL well guess what those other teams do as well.  We draft 7 players per year and we have 23 men on the roster. That would mean every 3 years a complete roster turnover if all those players hit.  That just doesn't make sense. If you get 2 NHL players out of a draft you have done well. Since 2012 we have gotten potentially 10 guys who have legitimate shots to make the NHL within the next 5 years.  Find another team that has that.

Edited by LGR4GM, 03 April 2014 - 08:25 AM.


#40 nfreeman

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:09 AM

View Postdrnkirishone, on 02 April 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

yes I was one of the optimists and I won't apologize for being one. when the cold wind of the north sends its sign that winter is coming and hockey is to begin my optimism is renewed. When the long night ends my sabres will be holding the holiest of holy cups high over their heads and it shall be known that Zadorov became Azor Ahai reborn by plunging his hockey stick into the heart of Taro Tsujimoto and saving us from the Others (bruins)

When do we get to see the khaleesi?