Jump to content


Tyler Myers

Too many mistakes?

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 716

716

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:01 PM

Tyler Myers is a 6'8 defenseman for the Sabres. He won Rookie of the Year 4 years ago but he has regressed since. He's only 23 or so...and has had several coaches. The team brought back Tallinder at several million, to see if he could help him gain his old form. Although this year has been a resurgence of sorts under Nolan, Myers is projected to finish as a -30. He just signed a 7 year/38.5 mil contract with the team. Question, does Myers have the potential while playing for the Sabres or does he just make too many mistakes?

#2 ThirtyEight

ThirtyEight

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,702 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, UK

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:11 PM

Rewatch the last 15 games.

#3 d4rksabre

d4rksabre

    This pleases Nikita

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,126 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:14 PM

As one of his biggest critics over the past few seasons, I'm not done with him yet. He's 24 years old today, which is still really young.

He's in the second year of his contract and for the Sabres it makes sense to keep him around until he's about 26-7. If he hasn't turned the corner into a great defenseman then he's only got 2.5 to 3 years left on his deal if you want to trade him. There will be teams willing to take a shot at him anyway and his 5.5mil cap high might be chump change by the time 2016-17 rolls around seeing as how the cap is projected to keep going up and up.

I think he's the kinda guy you hang onto and move up and down the lineup depending on how he's playing. But to give up on him seems silly. He's got a ton of development to do still and I don't think he's anywhere near his potential.

#4 X. Benedict

X. Benedict

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,995 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:15 PM

View Post716, on 01 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Tyler Myers is a 6'8 defenseman for the Sabres. He won Rookie of the Year 4 years ago but he has regressed since. He's only 23 or so...and has had several coaches. The team brought back Tallinder at several million, to see if he could help him gain his old form. Although this year has been a resurgence of sorts under Nolan, Myers is projected to finish as a -30. He just signed a 7 year/38.5 mil contract with the team. Question, does Myers have the potential while playing for the Sabres or does he just make too many mistakes?

24. It's his Birfday today. Happidy Birfday to him.

Tyler should be sending his agent stripo-grams every Thursday with the contract he got. It's hard to think he'll ever live up to that.
But in 2 years, he is probably playing at market price and cap hit that may be just near his value.  Inconsistency and big mistakes.
Needs weight but when he adds it, he plays top-heavy and slow an his skates.

He'll come into his man-strength in the next few years. But overall I think we can call the contact a bad one that may be livable in a few years.

#5 Robviously

Robviously

    What You Don't See

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,071 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Texas

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

If he ever gets back to being what he was his rookie year, he IS the rebuilding plan. Not sure if that will happen but I'm liking him more now than I have in a  while.

#6 d4rksabre

d4rksabre

    This pleases Nikita

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,126 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:21 PM

View PostRobviously, on 01 February 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

If he ever gets back to being what he was his rookie year, he IS the rebuilding plan. Not sure if that will happen but I'm liking him more now than I have in a  while.

I think for a kid like him his ups are going to be really up, and his downs are going to be really down. It seems to be his development pattern. Right now I think he's finally gotten over the first hurdle and is trending up with all the responsibility he's being given during this garbage season. I think he'll be better next year. And then maybe really bad again. And then better. :wacko:

#7 X. Benedict

X. Benedict

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,995 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:23 PM

View PostRobviously, on 01 February 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

If he ever gets back to being what he was his rookie year, he IS the rebuilding plan. Not sure if that will happen but I'm liking him more now than I have in a  while.

His best play is really outside the circles. Below the circles in the D zone - inconsistent.

Talented, but he may never develop the snarl that should be commensurate with his size. When he goes for the big hit - it is usually good - and slightly high (ie. league inquiry).

#8 dudacek

dudacek

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,110 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:High and wide

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:50 PM

I've really liked his game in the past couple months. He's really reduced the brain-dead and clumsy moments and he's making plays again.
He still needs to seal players off better down low — they tend to get underneath him — and he needs to be more accurate with his shot and his passes in the offensive zone.
But he has added a nice edge to his game in both ends and just looks more of a man out there.
Overpaid now, but three years from now when this team is good again we will be gloating over that contract.
His combination of age, ability and contract makes him the organization's most valuable asset.

#9 mjd1001

mjd1001

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 68 posts

Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:59 PM

Lets say Myers has played better lately, but still not up to the form he showed before, and it looks like he will lack the consistency to be a #1-2 Dman.  He is likely in that case to be a good 3-4 guy.  Why is that bad? Because of how much money you paid him of course. Well, with the Sabres needing to SPEND money to get to the Floor next year, they are really one of the few teams in the league who can afford (or best afford) to keep a good player on the roster you are paying like a great player.

#10 DeLuca1967

DeLuca1967

    #39 - Greatest of All-Time.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,212 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:11 PM

View PostRobviously, on 01 February 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

If he ever gets back to being what he was his rookie year, he IS the rebuilding plan. Not sure if that will happen but I'm liking him more now than I have in a  while.
Myers rookie year, franchise defenseman, the contract and Chara comparisons all need to be thrown out the window. They are expectations of a player that just may not exist. Let Myers be Myers which looks at this point will be a very good defenseman. I don't see any hardware in his future at this point but that doesn't mean his is Mike Wilson. He's locked into a contract and will never garner the return in a trade that will accurately compensate for the investment the Sabres have in Myers. If the Sabres have one asset it's time. The have a whole lot of work as a franchise ahead of them so there is no need to make any decision on Myers in regards to trading him. Let Myers play and develop, and when the time comes when things start getting serious around here in regards to be a contender, re-evaluate him then.

#11 X. Benedict

X. Benedict

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,995 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:16 PM

View Postdeluca67, on 01 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Myers rookie year, franchise defenseman, the contract and Chara comparisons all need to be thrown out the window. They are expectations of a player that just may not exist. Let Myers be Myers which looks at this point will be a very good defenseman. I don't see any hardware in his future at this point but that doesn't mean his is Mike Wilson. He's locked into a contract and will never garner the return in a trade that will accurately compensate for the investment the Sabres have in Myers. If the Sabres have one asset it's time. The have a whole lot of work as a franchise ahead of them so there is no need to make any decision on Myers in regards to trading him. Let Myers play and develop, and when the time comes when things start getting serious around here in regards to be a contender, re-evaluate him then.
solid assessment.

#12 nfreeman

nfreeman

    All I want is everything you got.

  • SS Mod Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,562 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

Well, I guess I have a higher opinion of Myers than most here.  I think he's had a very good bounceback year.  He's either first or 2nd in ice time most nights, he's laid out quite a few big hits, he's skated the puck up ice and jumped into the play in the offensive zone much more confidently and effectively and he's conducted himself well.

He's not Chara or Weber yet but I'm not ready to say that he won't get there -- which I was ready to say until about a month into this season.

Give him another couple of years with Teddy and an improving team and hopefully we'll be seeing an all-star.

#13 X. Benedict

X. Benedict

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,995 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:24 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 01 February 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Well, I guess I have a higher opinion of Myers than most here.  I think he's had a very good bounceback year.  He's either first or 2nd in ice time most nights, he's laid out quite a few big hits, he's skated the puck up ice and jumped into the play in the offensive zone much more confidently and effectively and he's conducted himself well.

He's not Chara or Weber yet but I'm not ready to say that he won't get there -- which I was ready to say until about a month into this season.

Give him another couple of years with Teddy and an improving team and hopefully we'll be seeing an all-star.

I'd love if he just became a solid #2 defender. I think the all-star expectations might be part of the problem......high expectations, huge contract etc.
I really do think his best hockey is still ahead of him. Though it still might be 2 or 3 years off.

Edited by X. Benedict, 01 February 2014 - 02:24 PM.


#14 Ghost of Dwight Drane

Ghost of Dwight Drane

    Texting Nun

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,868 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:37 PM

I said a few years ago his best bet was becoming a combination of Bill Hajt and Petr Svboda. Sort of looks that way...and he needs to get more Hajtish.

I would be more apt to move him now. The rest of the league has been scouting the daylights out of this team and I am sure they have seen the improved play from him. The problem with Myers is that he doesn't have self-identity. When you hear him talk this year, he is saying what he thinks he should be saying and what the shrink has worked with him on. He has to think his words, sort of like so often he thinks his play.

I like the kid personally, and he has gone from a trainwreck the past few years to serviceable with flashes of brilliance, but when you make a trade, you trade at peaks. People made the mistake it was a straightline up with him 4 years ago....let's not do it again. If there is a quality young forward out there on a team with a similar bad contract, package Myers and one of Ott/Moulson to even out salary and get a top line offensive prospect in here. You have Zadorov who looks to be pretty close to what we hoped Myers could become, and Risto. Pysyk and McNabb can be your #4 + #6 guy going forward....we need help up front.

#15 nfreeman

nfreeman

    All I want is everything you got.

  • SS Mod Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,562 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:41 PM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 01 February 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

I said a few years ago his best bet was becoming a combination of Bill Hajt and Petr Svboda. Sort of looks that way...and he needs to get more Hajtish.

I would be more apt to move him now. The rest of the league has been scouting the daylights out of this team and I am sure they have seen the improved play from him. The problem with Myers is that he doesn't have self-identity. When you hear him talk this year, he is saying what he thinks he should be saying and what the shrink has worked with him on. He has to think his words, sort of like so often he thinks his play.

I like the kid personally, and he has gone from a trainwreck the past few years to serviceable with flashes of brilliance, but when you make a trade, you trade at peaks. People made the mistake it was a straightline up with him 4 years ago....let's not do it again. If there is a quality young forward out there on a team with a similar bad contract, package Myers and one of Ott/Moulson to even out salary and get a top line offensive prospect in here. You have Zadorov who looks to be pretty close to what we hoped Myers could become, and Risto. Pysyk and McNabb can be your #4 + #6 guy going forward....we need help up front.

He's much more physical than either Hajt or Svoboda.

I would trade him for a good forward, but only a really good forward age 26 or younger.  Maybe someone like O'Reilly if Colorado can't afford him.

#16 DeLuca1967

DeLuca1967

    #39 - Greatest of All-Time.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,212 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:50 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 01 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

He's much more physical than either Hajt or Svoboda.

I would trade him for a good forward, but only a really good forward age 26 or younger.  Maybe someone like O'Reilly if Colorado can't afford him.
You have to balance the value of what you believe Myers can be to the value of a player like O'Reilly. If you believe Myers can reach that next level than he becomes far more valuable than a O'Reilly level forward.

#17 Ghost of Dwight Drane

Ghost of Dwight Drane

    Texting Nun

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,868 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:55 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 01 February 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:



He's much more physical than either Hajt or Svoboda.

I would trade him for a good forward, but only a really good forward age 26 or younger.  Maybe someone like O'Reilly if Colorado can't afford him.

He has improved using his body, but again, he has to think it.

If Myers were a stock...he came out guns ablazin at his IPO and went from 40 to 60. People were on the bandwagon and assumed he was headed to 100 and living the life of a franchise defenseman. Sadly...over the next 3 years, he went to 30...then 20...then 15...and bottomed out early this year at 10 or so. He's gone from that 10 back up to 25 or so, and maybe he can slowly get back to 35-40 with some consistency. I look at it as with that contract, be happy you could salvage a trade partner with him going to 25, and assume he is a 20-40 long term. You will probably never see that 60 again, and you would be nuts to think 100 was a possibility.

A contender may want him, but your best move is a hockey trade with a team that can use D but has forwards and wants to lose a bad contract.

#18 716

716

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:29 PM

I have a dim view of Myers. I don't think he has much hockey sense. He makes too many big mistakes; I don't think he has the brains or the consistency..Kind of like Mike Wilson 2.0.  I'd like to see him gone. I've given up on him. -4 today.....He's kind of like a Brontosaurus. A gentle plant eater, big body, little brain.

Edited by 716, 01 February 2014 - 08:30 PM.


#19 ThirtyEight

ThirtyEight

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,702 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, UK

Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:37 PM

View Post716, on 01 February 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

I have a dim view of Myers. I don't think he has much hockey sense. He makes too many big mistakes; I don't think he has the brains or the consistency..Kind of like Mike Wilson 2.0.  I'd like to see him gone. I've given up on him. -4 today.....He's kind of like a Brontosaurus. A gentle plant eater, big body, little brain.

I'm sure some people here just use stats to determine who the good and bad players are. Plus/Minus is awful at telling you much. It is a line stat. Myers made a poor clearing attempt that lead to a goal, but the other three were not really his wrong-doing. Most notably Leino getting smoked and Myers trying to block the 3-on-1 last minute.

#20 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:04 PM

View PostThirtyEight, on 01 February 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm sure some people here just use stats to determine who the good and bad players are. Plus/Minus is awful at telling you much. It is a line stat. Myers made a poor clearing attempt that lead to a goal, but the other three were not really his wrong-doing. Most notably Leino getting smoked and Myers trying to block the 3-on-1 last minute.

I think stats are telling over the long-term, not the short-term (e.g., today's -4).  Looking at the stats, one can make an argument that Tyler is getting worse year-over-year rather than better.  I think he has played better under Nolan, but the mistakes and poor decision making in his own zone remain.  Personally, I find it frustrating that after close to 5 full seasons and over 300 NHL games we're still talking about how good Big Tyler might be a few years from now... when should we expect that to happen?  Age 28?  Will it take 500 NHL games?  600?

I think our judgment of Tyler's potential is perhaps unconsciously affected by the constant comparison with Chara.  There seems to be an assumption that since Chara took a while to develop, Tyler will too... because both guys are tall?  And tall guys always are slow to develop?  Yet there are a ton of top defenseman (e.g. Shea Weber, Suter, Keith, Seabrook, etc.) who were already stars by year 5 in the league.

Personally, I'd trade Tyler and his "potential" for some scoring if we can get the right return (e.g. wing scoring).  Between McNabb, Pysyk, Risto, Zad and McCabe I think we'll find a top pairing in the not-too-distant future, which in my mind makes Big Tyler expendable.

#21 Numark

Numark

    Fourth Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 795 posts

Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:33 PM

i thought we liked myers again.  Nope?  TRADE HIM

#22 716

716

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:49 PM

View Postdudacek, on 01 February 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

and he needs to be more accurate with his shot and his passes in the offensive zone.

Bad shots AND passes is a bad sign.

#23 Eleven

Eleven

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,495 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 01 February 2014 - 11:27 PM

His shots are fine.  His point play (distributing and passing) is a big problem.  His own-end play remains a problem.  I agree, still young, but if some OTHER team thinks he's the next Chara, and wants to deal, let's go.

#24 inkman

inkman

    Fledgling Member of TSC

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,060 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fairport

Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

View Post716, on 01 February 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

I have a dim view of Myers. I don't think he has much hockey sense. He makes too many big mistakes; I don't think he has the brains or the consistency..Kind of like Mike Wilson 2.0.  I'd like to see him gone. I've given up on him. -4 today.....He's kind of like a Brontosaurus. A gentle plant eater, big body, little brain.
He's 10x more talented than Mike Wilson ever was.  Better skater, better passer, better shooter, better hitter, better fighter.  The tiny brain thing is just insulting.  His plus minus from today's games had little to do with HIS play.  He's had a disaster in front of him for 2+ seasons.  Can we judge him when the forwards on the team actually try to play defense?

#25 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 02 February 2014 - 01:19 AM

View Postinkman, on 02 February 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

He's 10x more talented than Mike Wilson ever was.  Better skater, better passer, better shooter, better hitter, better fighter.  The tiny brain thing is just insulting.  His plus minus from today's games had little to do with HIS play.  He's had a disaster in front of him for 2+ seasons.  Can we judge him when the forwards on the team actually try to play defense?

We're the worst team in the league and Big Tyler is the highest paid positional player on the team.  He deserves scrutiny as much as anyone, especially given 4 straight years of not making the playoffs and Big Tyler playing big minutes in each of those years.

BTW - Of the league-worst 99 goals the Sabres have scored this year, The Hoff has been on the ice for 61 of them, an amazingly high % and tied for 31st among all league defensemen. Big Tyler is next among Sabres defensemen with 31 - only about 1/2 of The Hoff. That's about the same as McBain (28) who has played 10 fewer games than Big Tyler. Both The Hoff and Myers are among the league's top-30 most scored upon defensemen.  That's where the big +/- discrepancy comes from.

#26 Naulter8

Naulter8

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 154 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 February 2014 - 04:36 AM

View Postinkman, on 02 February 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:


He's 10x more talented than Mike Wilson ever was.  Better skater, better passer, better shooter, better hitter, better fighter.  The tiny brain thing is just insulting.  His plus minus from today's games had little to do with HIS play.  He's had a disaster in front of him for 2+ seasons.  Can we judge him when the forwards on the team actually try to play defense?




Thumbs up!! Do we risk making the same mistake nyi and Ott made with chara? Does anybody understand a learning curve? Anybody who says he should be a Norris trophy candidate after 5 years clearly never played defense,  and probably never played the game.

Edited by Naulter8, 02 February 2014 - 04:39 AM.


#27 LTS

LTS

    Who's next?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,003 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mendon, NY (by way of Tonawanda)

Posted 02 February 2014 - 10:43 AM

View PostPotato, on 02 February 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:

We're the worst team in the league and Big Tyler is the highest paid positional player on the team.  He deserves scrutiny as much as anyone, especially given 4 straight years of not making the playoffs and Big Tyler playing big minutes in each of those years.

BTW - Of the league-worst 99 goals the Sabres have scored this year, The Hoff has been on the ice for 61 of them, an amazingly high % and tied for 31st among all league defensemen. Big Tyler is next among Sabres defensemen with 31 - only about 1/2 of The Hoff. That's about the same as McBain (28) who has played 10 fewer games than Big Tyler. Both The Hoff and Myers are among the league's top-30 most scored upon defensemen.  That's where the big +/- discrepancy comes from.

Does that account for the other 4 players who are on the ice with him at the same time?  I'm not saying there's no validity there but if you are paired with a weak D partner and some poor forwards the likelihood of a goal being scored goes up right?  So, if you put out a good "D" pairing to offset a weaker forward set then they are likely to be scored upon but perhaps less so than if you had a weaker "D" pairing out there.  They are also less likely to be on the ice for goals because those forwards aren't scoring.

Just my thoughts.  If the information you referred to works to explain some of that away I'm all ears.

#28 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 02 February 2014 - 10:57 AM

Naulter - A guy from the same draft class as Myers (drafted behind Big Tyler) has already won the Norris (Karlsson) at age 21.  Last year's winner (Subban) won it at 23.   :P

Again, I ask: why is it that Myers = Chara and not any of the other defensemen who were stars after 300 NHL games?  Because he is tall?

#29 TrueBluePhD

TrueBluePhD

    First Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,462 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cheektowaga, NY

Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:14 AM

View PostPotato, on 02 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Naulter - A guy from the same draft class as Myers (drafted behind Big Tyler) has already won the Norris (Karlsson) at age 21.  Last year's winner (Subban) won it at 23.   :P

Again, I ask: why is it that Myers = Chara and not any of the other defensemen who were stars after 300 NHL games?  Because he is tall?

It has much more to do with the development curve of Chara's career than any height comparisons. I don't think he reached his peak until his Boston years.

I also don't buy the "younger defenseman have won the Norris, WTF is Myers' problem" line of reasoning. Karlsson and Subban are very much the exception, and using exceptions to make a point normally isn't the best route to take.

Frankly, I think DeLuca had one of the most reasonable takes on Myers I've heard anywhere.

#30 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:23 AM

View PostLTS, on 02 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Does that account for the other 4 players who are on the ice with him at the same time?  I'm not saying there's no validity there but if you are paired with a weak D partner and some poor forwards the likelihood of a goal being scored goes up right?  So, if you put out a good "D" pairing to offset a weaker forward set then they are likely to be scored upon but perhaps less so than if you had a weaker "D" pairing out there.  They are also less likely to be on the ice for goals because those forwards aren't scoring.

Just my thoughts.  If the information you referred to works to explain some of that away I'm all ears.

I think as much as anything I was just shocked at how little we score, both even strength and power play, when The Hoff is not on the ice. The stats can be twisted all over the place, of course... but I'd like to think that if we're sitting on the next Chara as many here think then we should be able to get a ton back for him in trade. And, if he turns out not to be the next Chara... then we win the trade by a landslide. :)

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 02 February 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

It has much more to do with the development curve of Chara's career than any height comparisons. I don't think he reached his peak until his Boston years.

I also don't buy the "younger defenseman have won the Norris, WTF is Myers' problem" line of reasoning. Karlsson and Subban are very much the exception, and using exceptions to make a point normally isn't the best route to take.

Frankly, I think DeLuca had one of the most reasonable takes on Myers I've heard anywhere.

The Norris only singles out one guy a year (usually goes to a guy who has been around a long time since it can be a popularity contest of sorts)... but you can go through the list of top defensemen and most didn't take 6+ years to develop.  Chara did.  I think Bouwmeester did.  Pronger did back in the day.  But, many others were very good after only a few years.

We're anchoring on Chara as the basis of comparison... but why him and not 100 other guys?  Because he is tall, right?

#31 TrueBluePhD

TrueBluePhD

    First Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,462 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cheektowaga, NY

Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:28 AM

View PostPotato, on 02 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

The Norris only singles out one guy a year (usually goes to a guy who has been around a long time since it can be a popularity contest of sorts)... but you can go through the list of top defensemen and most didn't take 6+ years to develop.  Chara did.  I think Bouwmeester did.  Pronger did back in the day.  But, many others were very good after only a few years.

We're anchoring on Chara as the basis of comparison... but why him and not 100 other guys?  Because he is tall, right?

I think height was certainly the original basis for comparison. Now? I don't think that's the case. It's either out of habit or because of the longer and uneven development Chara had.

As to not comparing to 100 other guys, I think one thing we need to consider beyond years in the league is age. How many of those 100 went straight to the NHL at 19 from juniors with no AHL time?

Edited by TrueBluePhD, 02 February 2014 - 11:29 AM.


#32 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    Poop Flavored Lollypop

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tanking it Old School

Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:55 AM

If I am trading Myers I am looking at Edm first round pick.  Then I take Reinhart and Ekblad.  You make this trade post lottery fyi but that would be the route I take.

#33 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:04 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 02 February 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think height was certainly the original basis for comparison. Now? I don't think that's the case. It's either out of habit or because of the longer and uneven development Chara had.

As to not comparing to 100 other guys, I think one thing we need to consider beyond years in the league is age. How many of those 100 went straight to the NHL at 19 from juniors with no AHL time?

Interesting question. From the first round of that same 2008 draft class:
Drew Doughty went straight to the NHL. Bogosian did. Luke Schenn did. Luca Sbisa did. Karlsson spent a year in Sweden before making the jump to the NHL. Del Zotto spent a year in juniors before making the jump. Pietrangelo spent a couple of years in juniors before making the jump as did John Carlson (hopefully what we do with Zadorov). Jake Gardiner spent 3 years in college before making the jump. Colten Teubert (taken right after Big Tyler) looks like a bust as does Tyler Cuma (taken 23rd overal).

...Wow, I didn't realize how strong that draft was.  Our top 2 scorers (Little Tyler and CoHo) also came from that first round.

#34 Eleven

Eleven

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,495 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:13 PM

View PostPotato, on 02 February 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Interesting question. From the first round of that same 2008 draft class:
Drew Doughty went straight to the NHL. Bogosian did. Luke Schenn did. Luca Sbisa did. Karlsson spent a year in Sweden before making the jump to the NHL. Del Zotto spent a year in juniors before making the jump. Pietrangelo spent a couple of years in juniors before making the jump as did John Carlson (hopefully what we do with Zadorov). Jake Gardiner spent 3 years in college before making the jump. Colten Teubert (taken right after Big Tyler) looks like a bust as does Tyler Cuma (taken 23rd overal).

...Wow, I didn't realize how strong that draft was.  Our top 2 scorers (Little Tyler and CoHo) also came from that first round.

Stamkos, too.

#35 Naulter8

Naulter8

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 154 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:29 AM

View PostPotato, on 02 February 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Naulter - A guy from the same draft class as Myers (drafted behind Big Tyler) has already won the Norris (Karlsson) at age 21.  Last year's winner (Subban) won it at 23.   :P

Again, I ask: why is it that Myers = Chara and not any of the other defensemen who were stars after 300 NHL games?  Because he is tall?



I'm not saying every defenseman has a slower learning curve,  I'm saying to be a great defenseman takes time!  Take a look at subban and karlsson,  not the highlights,  watch the lowlights.  Both of those players play the offensive side great but often have huge defensive lapses.  Because of the offense it's over looked to an extent.  Myers was never expected to bring in alot of offense and he isn't so when he has a defensive lapse it sticks out a lot more.  Judging by his contract I'm guessing the gm is on my side! (even though it was regier)

#36 716

716

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:34 AM

View Postinkman, on 02 February 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

He's 10x more talented than Mike Wilson ever was.  Better skater, better passer, better shooter, better hitter, better fighter.  The tiny brain thing is just insulting.  His plus minus from today's games had little to do with HIS play.  He's had a disaster in front of him for 2+ seasons.  Can we judge him when the forwards on the team actually try to play defense?

10 x 0 still = 0. The tiny brain thing does seem insulting in retrospect but I feel I have the right to insult a player, if he's been insulting me for almost five years with the same hair-tearing mistakes. It's the little things that kill me. The errant little passes, the wide shots, the bowling people over after the play, the way he generally doesn't connect. I apologize to Mr. Myers in advance for ruffling his feathers and please I'm a little extra sorry if he's sensitive to criticism, but he's the elephant in the room. The huge guy who makes crucial errors and for that I'd say Ruhedel would be just as good if not better.

#37 d4rksabre

d4rksabre

    This pleases Nikita

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,126 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:58 AM

View Post716, on 03 February 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

10 x 0 still = 0. The tiny brain thing does seem insulting in retrospect but I feel I have the right to insult a player, if he's been insulting me for almost five years with the same hair-tearing mistakes. It's the little things that kill me. The errant little passes, the wide shots, the bowling people over after the play, the way he generally doesn't connect. I apologize to Mr. Myers in advance for ruffling his feathers and please I'm a little extra sorry if he's sensitive to criticism, but he's the elephant in the room. The huge guy who makes crucial errors and for that I'd say Ruhedel would be just as good if not better.

This might be the dumbest critique of an athlete ever.

#38 SwampD

SwampD

    All Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,811 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Jersey, orig. NT

Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

View Postd4rksabre, on 03 February 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

This might be the dumbest critique of an athlete ever.
But maybe one of the funnier ones.

#39 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    Poop Flavored Lollypop

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,361 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tanking it Old School

Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

It seems that Tyler Myers doesn't have the hockey IQ to process the game at the NHL level on a regular basis. That I don't think is something that can be taught.

#40 Potato

Potato

    Take Off

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,322 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nashville

Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:50 AM

View PostNaulter8, on 03 February 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

I'm not saying every defenseman has a slower learning curve,  I'm saying to be a great defenseman takes time!  Take a look at subban and karlsson,  not the highlights,  watch the lowlights.  Both of those players play the offensive side great but often have huge defensive lapses.  Because of the offense it's over looked to an extent.  Myers was never expected to bring in alot of offense and he isn't so when he has a defensive lapse it sticks out a lot more.  Judging by his contract I'm guessing the gm is on my side! (even though it was regier)

Good post.

All defensemen make mistakes from time to time... I just see too many poor plays out of Big Tyler than I'd like for a guy who has played over 300 NHL games and has a monster contract... and not enough of the great plays to make me see a future all-star.

For the record, Myers isn't my least favorite defenseman on the team... I'm a big disliker (not hater) of Weber's game.  He brings absolutely nothing offensively.  Nothing.  And, I think in today's NHL so much of the offense has to be generated from the back-end that the days of the purely defensive defensemen are numbered.