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GDT: Vancouver at Buffalo 10-17-13 at 7:00 PM

GAME DISCUSSION THREAD Canucks

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#1 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

VAN (4-3-0) at BUF (1-6-1) – OCT 17 – 7:00PM ET – MSG-B, BELL TVWGR-AM

Canucks aim for third straight road win vs. Sabres

Game Preview: 10/17/13 vs Vancouver

Hodgson wants to make one thing clear: His dad didn’t get involved



Here's an opportunity for an up close and personal comparison of Zack vs Cody. Good seats still available. :)

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 16 October 2013 - 11:15 PM.


#2 inkman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:16 PM

The revenge of Sulzer!!

(I know he's not on the roster)

#3 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:48 PM

Sabres Haiku

Sabres off the Snide Posted Image

Is Darcy on the Hot Seat? Posted Image

Free Grigorenko! Posted Image

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 17 October 2013 - 06:44 AM.


#4 wjag

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:30 AM

Sabres Haiku

#5 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:44 AM

View Postwjag, on 17 October 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Sabres Haiku

:thumbsup:

#6 LTS

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

Zack Kassian gets his much deserved "Welcome Back" message.

#7 Eleven

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostLTS, on 17 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Zack Kassian gets his much deserved "Welcome Back" message.

I do hope there's a tribute.  Otherwise, some hack on twitter might criticize the front office.

#8 d4rksabre

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:56 AM

Luongo lets in four soft goals, Miller avoids criticism.

#9 bunomatic

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

Go Sabres !

Torts has been splitting up the twins which seems to be working. Kessler is healthy and playing like his old form. Should be a challenge for the boys. Can they win 2 in a row ?

#10 MattPie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostLTS, on 17 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Zack Kassian gets his much deserved "Welcome Back" message.

View PostEleven, on 17 October 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I do hope there's a tribute.  Otherwise, some hack on twitter might criticize the front office.

Beat me to it!

#11 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

#12 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

:doh:

#13 sicknfla

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

With lines like that I can't see why we would even think of wanting Yakupov.

#14 d4rksabre

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:15 AM

This continuation of the Lindy Ruff method with Grigorenko has me wondering. We know Rolston expressed that he thought Grigorenko would be going back to juniors, which Darcy rebuffed. Lindy wasn't going to play him big minutes. Now Ron isn't either? Yet Darcy wants to keep him with the team.

Is this more evidence of the Darcy disconnect?

#15 Derrico

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:22 AM

View Postd4rksabre, on 17 October 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

This continuation of the Lindy Ruff method with Grigorenko has me wondering. We know Rolston expressed that he thought Grigorenko would be going back to juniors, which Darcy rebuffed. Lindy wasn't going to play him big minutes. Now Ron isn't either? Yet Darcy wants to keep him with the team.

Is this more evidence of the Darcy disconnect?

I think this is all part of their master plan to intentionally tank for a top draft pick.  Too bad it may ruin another top prospect in the process.

#16 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

View Postd4rksabre, on 17 October 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

This continuation of the Lindy Ruff method with Grigorenko has me wondering. We know Rolston expressed that he thought Grigorenko would be going back to juniors, which Darcy rebuffed. Lindy wasn't going to play him big minutes. Now Ron isn't either? Yet Darcy wants to keep him with the team.

Is this more evidence of the Darcy disconnect?

Ron never said he expected him back in juniors, did he? I remember him saying he was competing for a roster spot like everybody else.  

But yes, I do think there's still a disconnect between the GM, the organizational plan, and the coach.

#17 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:49 AM

If I know Torts like I think I know Torts....Kassian will have a Gordie Howe Hat Trick tonight. Seriously....book it.

Torts is a general. He's going to use this game to springboard the kid's career. I'm sure he's in his ear today, telling him not to get too amped, but that he is going to give him a shot. He's got his old team, his family in the stands, new coach and coming off suspension. I hope Ott doesn't fight him because the person that does will probably get bloodied. Maybe Scott gets him. I can see him getting some powerplay time, especially if the Canucks have the lead.

Fun game. I'm cruising the intrawebs and may go. I've shaven off my chest hair in hopes Torts will sign my man bossom.

#18 apuszczalowski

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 17 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

If I know Torts like I think I know Torts....Kassian will have a Gordie Howe Hat Trick tonight. Seriously....book it.

Torts is a general. He's going to use this game to springboard the kid's career. I'm sure he's in his ear today, telling him not to get too amped, but that he is going to give him a shot. He's got his old team, his family in the stands, new coach and coming off suspension. I hope Ott doesn't fight him because the person that does will probably get bloodied. Maybe Scott gets him. I can see him getting some powerplay time, especially if the Canucks have the lead.

Fun game. I'm cruising the intrawebs and may go. I've shaven off my chest hair in hopes Torts will sign my man bossom.
You don't have a life size Torts portrait Tattoo accross your back? And you call yourself his lover.........................

#19 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 17 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

If I know Torts like I think I know Torts....Kassian will have a Gordie Howe Hat Trick tonight. Seriously....book it.

Torts is a general. He's going to use this game to springboard the kid's career. I'm sure he's in his ear today, telling him not to get too amped, but that he is going to give him a shot. He's got his old team, his family in the stands, new coach and coming off suspension. I hope Ott doesn't fight him because the person that does will probably get bloodied. Maybe Scott gets him. I can see him getting some powerplay time, especially if the Canucks have the lead.

Fun game. I'm cruising the intrawebs and may go. I've shaven off my chest hair in hopes Torts will sign my man bossom.

Will there ever come a time where you jump off the Kassian train?  I figure if he hasn't shown anything by the end of this season, you almost have to, right?

#20 That Aud Smell

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 17 October 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Fun game. I'm cruising the intrawebs and may go. I've shaven off my chest hair in hopes Torts will sign my man bossom.

Posted Image

#21 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:



Will there ever come a time where you jump off the Kassian train?  I figure if he hasn't shown anything by the end of this season, you almost have to, right?

The way I look at it, is you traded a 25% chance at Cam Neely for a 40% chance at Pierre Turgeon. Now it's more like 15%/50%. In reality you probably traded Joey Kocur for Benoit Hogue.

Darcy is ahead in the trade right now. On a franchise that has been loaded with Turgeons and Hogues, I take a chance on a Neely all day.....

#22 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:48 AM

Press Clips: 10/17/13 vs Vancouver

#23 qwksndmonster

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:49 AM

I love reading GoDD's posts about Torts.  So romantic :wub:

#24 dEnnis the Menace

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostThat Aud Smell, on 17 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Posted Image

I literally started crying I'm laughing so hard. With the couple of days I've been having at work, I needed that lol.

I'm feeling a win tonight...just because.  No rhyme or reason.

#25 hockeyhound

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:57 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

Grigs against a bunch of fourth liners; it might not be a bad thing.

If Scott and McCormick can't create space for Grigs to work his magic, and if grigs can't capitalize off of their hard work then maybe it time to send Grigs back to the AHL.

Grigs should be able to out play a fourth liner that has questionable skills.

#26 Potato

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:58 AM

Miller should be extra motivated to play for the scouts in the building tonight!

#27 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

RR after the Morning Skate: http://video.nhl.com...nter/?id=461320

#28 That Aud Smell

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Grigs skating with Scott and McCormick. Oh goody.

playing him on a 4th line is one thing, but playing him with guys like scott and mccormick is whole 'nother thing. and it makes no sense -- at all.

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Grigs against a bunch of fourth liners; it might not be a bad thing.

If Scott and McCormick can't create space for Grigs to work his magic, and if grigs can't capitalize off of their hard work then maybe it time to send Grigs back to the AHL.

Grigs should be able to out play a fourth liner that has questionable skills.

i take a different view. grigorenko (who of course can't go to the ahl) is playing with 4th liners, who likely can't do the things that are needed to showcase his skill set. and if the past is prelude, other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko.

#29 hockeyhound

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostThat Aud Smell, on 17 October 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

playing him on a 4th line is one thing, but playing him with guys like scott and mccormick is whole 'nother thing. and it makes no sense -- at all.



i take a different view. grigorenko (who of course can't go to the ahl) is playing with 4th liners, who likely can't do the things that are needed to showcase his skill set. and if the past is prelude, other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko.

Isn't that what they are trying to get Grigorenko to do?

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.

Grigs has brought this on himself; if this is a rebuilding year, and Grigs is not competing or hustling, and though it maybe painful, Grigs has to learn some how.

The Sabres top six should be carrying the offensive load, not a developing 19yr old.

I am sure some one will respond that it is such a waste to put such a talented guy on the fourth line.

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

RR is right, the kid is not competing at the level he should.

All the skill in the world is useless if you don't compete, and what about the observation that "other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko." ?

I look at it like this, the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set.

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.

If Scott and McCormick can establish a consistent fore-check and hold the puck long enough to dish it off to Grigs, then Grigs should be able to work his magic.

The whole idea that Grigs being put on the fourth line IMO is over blown, and really doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.

Edited by hockeyhound, 17 October 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#30 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Isn't that what they are trying to get Grigorenko to do?

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.

Grigs has brought this on himself; if this is a rebuilding year, and Grigs is not competing or hustling, and though it maybe painful, Grigs has to learn some how.

The Sabres top six should be carrying the offensive load, not a developing 19yr old.

I am sure some one will respond that it is such a waste to put such a talented guy on the fourth line.

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

RR is right, the kid is not competing at the level he should.

All the skill in the world is useless if you don't compete, and what about the observation that "other teams' 4th liners, who are lunch bucket guys who play with heart and soul, routinely out-hustle and out-compete grigorenko." ?

I look at it like this, the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set.

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.

If Scott and McCormick can establish a consistent fore-check and hold the puck long enough to dish it off to Grigs, then Grigs should be able to work his magic.

The whole idea that Grigs being put on the fourth line IMO is over blown, and really doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.

1) The Sabres top six can barely carry their own jocks right now, let alone the offensive load.  Seriously, we have 11 goals in 8 games...why shouldn't we use our skill players to help develop another skill player?  It's not like the offense will get worse.

2) Recent research suggests that quality of teammate (ie. the players someone actually skates with) matters more for player production than anything else, be it competition, zone starts, coach, whatever.  

3) There is absolutely nothing to suggest Scott or McCormick have an ounce of puck possession ability.  This whole thing about "making space for Grigs to do his thing" is a fallacy.

4) Grigs best traits are his passing and vision...even if Scott and McCormick could open up space, who in the hell on that line is going to finish his passes and convert them to goals?

#31 LGR4GM

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:36 PM

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.

Until Grigs figures out how to play the way Enniss, Stafford, and Foligno did the other night, then he is certainly destined for the AHL at the first available opportunity.
Just two things, Grigorenko has been given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines when?  I don't think he goes the AHL next season.  I think they keep him up and keep working him at the NHL level now.  Whether we like it or not Grigorenko will be staying.

#32 hockeyhound

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

1) The Sabres top six can barely carry their own jocks right now, let alone the offensive load.  Seriously, we have 11 goals in 8 games...why shouldn't we use our skill players to help develop another skill player?  It's not like the offense will get worse.

2) Recent research suggests that quality of teammate (ie. the players someone actually skates with) matters more for player production than anything else, be it competition, zone starts, coach, whatever.  

3) There is absolutely nothing to suggest Scott or McCormick have an ounce of puck possession ability.  This whole thing about "making space for Grigs to do his thing" is a fallacy.

4) Grigs best traits are his passing and vision...even if Scott and McCormick could open up space, who in the hell on that line is going to finish his passes and convert them to goals?

Great point; however, our top six has not been competing and hustling but, our bottom six have, and compete and hustle is what Grigs needs to learn.

I am not saying that your points are invalid, and if the top six were competing and hustling then I think you are exactly right; however, at this point the top six haven't been able to teach Grigs what he needs to know.

Regarding the puck possession issue; it was just a couple games ago when the Scott line had the best down low puck possession game of the season by any line the Sabers had put out up to that point.

It was an amazing shift.

My thought was not that Grigs is dishing to Scott and McCormick but that Scott and McCormick retrieve pucks and dish to Grigs and then let him go one on one with the other teams fourth line guy.

Yes it maybe a little unorthodox; however, when other things don't seem to be working then maybe its time to get creative.

Edited by hockeyhound, 17 October 2013 - 12:48 PM.


#33 That Aud Smell

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I see it is Grigs being sent to the AHL without the demotion.


I get this. Fair enough.

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

O.k. where is the talent, it certainly not on the score board, and God knows he has been given a chance on the 1st and second lines.


it's that same distinction you're making: you may have talent, but if you don't play with urgency and energy, it won't show.



View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Personally I think guys like Crosby, Malkin, Sadin's, etc. hustle and compete and hustle at a much higher level then most fourth liners.


Or at least at an equal level, and their talent separates them from the 4th liners.

#34 Dannepanne

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

One game with Scott and Mccormick isn't going too ruin him... He will probably get some time on a more potent line later in the game (after a few pucks behind miller).

#35 LGR4GM

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:50 PM

Okay am I wrong when I say Mikhail Grigorenko has been playing on the 3rd line this season?

#36 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

View Posthockeyhound, on 17 October 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Great point; however, our top six has not been competing and hustling but, our bottom six have, and compete and hustle is what Grigs needs to learn.

I am not saying that your points are invalid, and if the top six were competing and hustling then I think you are exactly right; however, at this point the top six haven't been able to teach Grigs what he needs to know.

Regarding the puck possession issue; it was just a couple games ago when the Scott line had the best down low puck possession game of the season by any line the Sabers had put out up to that point.

It was an amazing shift.

I just disagree that 4th liners' effort level will rub off on Grigorenko.  I think if he's with some offensive players and puts up a few points, his confidence level will grow and from that you'll see a more engaged player.  

Regarding puck possession, McCormick's relative Corsi is -24.5 and Scott's is -25.4, 3rd and 2nd worst on the team, respectively--better than only Ristolainen.

#37 kishoph

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 17 October 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Just two things, Grigorenko has been given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines when?  I don't think he goes the AHL next season.  I think they keep him up and keep working him at the NHL level now.  Whether we like it or not Grigorenko will be staying.

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.

#38 LGR4GM

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:58 PM

View Postkishoph, on 17 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.
Yea or give the 3rd line of Girgensons - Girgorenko - Flynn more minutes and see how the cope with it.  I actually thought that line looked more like a 2nd line than our actual second line.  Grigs was even starting to show signs of life before the stupid benching and subsequent demotion of stupidity that scores a 9.9 on the wtf rolston scale.

#39 hockeyhound

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 17 October 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Okay am I wrong when I say Mikhail Grigorenko has been playing on the 3rd line this season?

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 17 October 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

I just disagree that 4th liners' effort level will rub off on Grigorenko.  I think if he's with some offensive players and puts up a few points, his confidence level will grow and from that you'll see a more engaged player.  

Regarding puck possession, McCormick's relative Corsi is -24.5 and Scott's is -25.4, 3rd and 2nd worst on the team, respectively--better than only Ristolainen.

I apologize, you are all right; however, how do you solve the problem.

I must have missed it but I thought even though Grigs was on the first or second line roster position, he was still getting intermediate shifts with the first and second line. I am pretty sure RR was rotating Grigs into those lines during the previous games; however, maybe I am completely wrong.

They must be seeing something that they can exploit; I don't think they are putting Grigs on the 4th line just because, RR seems to be way to analytical to make a decision based on emotional bias.

Would you agree that the difference between the Sabres and many of the teams in the league is that heart and soul, compete and hustle runs through lines one through four on most teams and the only thing that separates the fourth line heart and soul guy from a first line heart and soul guy is that the first liner has a greater skill set?

If the top six are not competing then what do they have to offer?

Good passing, down low puck possession, tick tac toe passing plays, creativity...I get it; however, you have to agree none of this has been a part of the top six.

I wouldn't want to be in RR's shoes, and I am sure that there are some days when he rethinks his decision of taking the job.

Either way I like what I see out of the current top six players and it seems to me that things are turning around.

By the way, my thought was not that Grigs is dishing to Scott and McCormick but that Scott and McCormick retrieve pucks and dish to Grigs and then let him go one on one with the other teams fourth line guy.

Yes it maybe a little unorthodox; however, when other things don't seem to be working then maybe its time to get creative.

Let's Go Buffalo!

Edited by hockeyhound, 17 October 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#40 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

View Postkishoph, on 17 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I thought the same thing, he may have been given an occasional shift here and there, but that is not what I would call "given a chance on the 1st and 2nd lines." I think it'd be pretty hard to develop any kind of chemistry in three 1 minute shifts. I would try to let him center the 2nd line and move Foligno or Ennis up to the 1st line and bring Ott down to the 3rd. Removing Ott from the 1st line is not gonna hurt the teams 1 goal a game average, but it sure might help it, if you get another "scorer" on there.

This is basically how I feel.  I understand that people want players to earn their spots, particularly younger players who haven't proven anything, I get that, I really do.  But what exactly is the downside here?  The team has a single win in eight games, via shootout no less, and is averaging barely above one goal per game all while losing the puck posession battle in hilariously lopsided fashion.  Let's say the entire locker room becomes angry that a kid didn't "earn" his ice time (as if half the roster earns it anyway) and gets alienated...do things get worse? Can they?  Meanwhile, the upside is you might get your best prospect (and arguably most talented offensive player not named Vanek) some traction and confidence.  I'm not saying he will start producing, but isn't it worth a shot?





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