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Will the Bills and Sabres Shuffle Out of Buffalo?

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#1 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:07 AM

http://www.thestreet...of-buffalo.html

Buffalo Bills and Sabres fans enter every new season knowing that, a decade from now, their teams may not be around for another.

#2 Eleven

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

Not this ###### again...

#3 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostEleven, on 16 October 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Not this ###### again...

The question with regard to the Sabres is ridiculous with Pegula around and all of the money he's investing in the community.

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 16 October 2013 - 10:17 AM.


#4 SwampD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:22 AM

View Post26CornerBlitz, on 16 October 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

http://www.thestreet...of-buffalo.html

Buffalo Bills and Sabres fans enter every new season knowing that, a decade from now, their teams may not be around for another.
I don't know that. I never even think that. Ever.

#5 sicknfla

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:43 AM

The article is a tad over dramatic but all in all pretty well written. It's not easy being a Buffalo sports fan and obviously this guy has some passion. Like many of us on here we are no longer in the Buffalo area. I have personally lived in the Tampa area for the past 17 years. Buffalo sports is in my blood. Good or bad I wouldn't want it any other way.

#6 Taro T

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:45 AM

View Post26CornerBlitz, on 16 October 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

http://www.thestreet...of-buffalo.html

Buffalo Bills and Sabres fans enter every new season knowing that, a decade from now, their teams may not be around for another.
Totally worthless article.

Annoyed that I wasted my time reading it.

#7 d4rksabre

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

No.

Can we close the thread now?

#8 inkman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostSwampD, on 16 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

I don't know that. I never even think that. Ever.
+1,000,000

#9 weave

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

I really, truly believe that it is inevitable that the Bills are leaving Buffalo.  I'm not sure it is as close as next season, but I can't see the team staying with an outdated stadium and the lack of corporate support in western NY.  Maybe that is part of the reason I am not emotionally invested in the team any more.  I don't think they are here for the long haul.

The Sabres on the other hand, have an up-to-date facility and an owner committed to Buffalo.  And there really is no better market for hockey that doesn't already have a team.  I can't see the Sabres leaving.

#10 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM

Weave, I don't even think it's inevitable the Bills leave. I do, however, fully expect to be bent over with a new stadium ransom to keep them here.

#11 nucci

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:34 PM

View Post26CornerBlitz, on 16 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

The question with regard to the Sabres is ridiculous with Pegula around and all of the money he's investing in the community.
he could still sell the team

#12 TM8-PL16

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:42 PM

as soon as I saw it was from Portland, OR... I got annoyed.  Then the first two paragraphs annoyed me further with the writer trying way to hard to find strange words to get his point across to show he's smarter than everyone else.  Needless to say I didn't read past the first page... I don't think i'm missing anything.

#13 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

The Sabres will still be around. I would say with 90% certainty that Buffalo will still be around because us fans will never stop rooting for the team.

#14 PASabreFan

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

View Post26CornerBlitz, on 16 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

The question with regard to the Sabres is ridiculous with Pegula around and all of the money he's investing in the community.

Ted has pretty consistently poured cold water on the idea of Pegula's weatlh being available to the franchise forever. He has explained various business decisions by pointing to the need to keep the franchise viable for future owners. Terry himself said he might need to invest some money in the short term to get the operation working the way he wants it. Then it goes to the kids, I think. Terry's comment about Ted surviving beyond his ownership is pretty intriguing and could certainly support the notion that the plan is to hand off to the kids someday.

Scott Brown of Channel 2 was certainly on the story from day one, and Terry pointed toward his kids when asked how long he'd own the team. In the final analysis, maybe even starting now, I think of the Sabres as a small-market franchise again, whereas Terry's initial statements made a lot of people think money would never be an object. And that will always make their existence dicy.

#15 LGR4GM

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:20 PM

10 years from now Buffalo will be better than right now Buffalo and include more ppl and more money. UB and Independent Health are major Economic Engines for the area.  The new medical corridor is also good news for DT. On top of that the Sabres have stable ownership and only an idiot would move such a popular team.  The Bills have rabid fans as well and after 12 years of crap they are finally start to gain the lost ones back.  Buffalo isn't dying anymore, IMPO it is starting the long upswing.

#16 MattPie

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Weave, I don't even think it's inevitable the Bills leave. I do, however, fully expect to be bent over with a new stadium ransom to keep them here.

Make it dome, downtown, designed for mixed football/hockey use. :)

#17 Eleven

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 16 October 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

10 years from now Buffalo will be better than right now Buffalo and include more ppl and more money. UB and Independent Health are major Economic Engines for the area.  The new medical corridor is also good news for DT. On top of that the Sabres have stable ownership and only an idiot would move such a popular team.  The Bills have rabid fans as well and after 12 years of crap they are finally start to gain the lost ones back.  Buffalo isn't dying anymore, IMPO it is starting the long upswing.

It's improved greatly in the nine years I've been here.

#18 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostMattPie, on 16 October 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Make it dome, downtown, designed for mixed football/hockey use. :)

I hate domes for football. Hate them. I also think it adds several hundred million to the cost.

#19 d4rksabre

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:55 PM

I would rather have a stadium that works for football and baseball than a closed roof stadium.

#20 Moulson26

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:02 PM

View Postnucci, on 16 October 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

he could still sell the team

Why would he do that for?

And why would he sell to a non-local market? Including Pegula, 3 of the top 10 richest NHL owners have ties to Buffalo. I don't think they would leave so easily.

#21 nfreeman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 16 October 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Weave, I don't even think it's inevitable the Bills leave. I do, however, fully expect to be bent over with a new stadium ransom to keep them here.

Maybe, but I'm skeptical.  There won't be any public money for a stadium anytime soon, and private money isn't going to be interested because the revenue won't be there to make the investment worthwhile.

#22 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 16 October 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Maybe, but I'm skeptical.  There won't be any public money for a stadium anytime soon, and private money isn't going to be interested because the revenue won't be there to make the investment worthwhile.

Not sure why you think there won't be public or private money.  The NFL itself will cover a large chunk of the cost ($100-200 million I believe, but I could be off on that), and the county/state already have been fronting $100 million or so every time the lease gets renewed.

#23 nfreeman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 16 October 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Not sure why you think there won't be public or private money.  The NFL itself will cover a large chunk of the cost ($100-200 million I believe, but I could be off on that), and the county/state already have been fronting $100 million or so every time the lease gets renewed.

The NFL -- i.e. the other 31 owners -- are just going to give the Bills $100MM - $200MM?  That doesn't sound right.  They might lend the Bills the money, but that means the debt service has to be covered via stadium revenues.

And I appreciate that the county has funded a couple of rounds of renovations at $100MM or so, but with a stadium costing at least $750MM, we're still about $500MM short even if the NFL is generous.  There is no way a WNY stadium will generate enough revenue to cover the debt service on $600MM - $700MM in borrowed money.

#24 JHeinz4727

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:07 PM

And really if both teams go.........Who the hell really cares. With the loss of Industry and jobs, wage and benefit cuts for those left, that are fortunate enough to be working. Higher taxes for residents here, to cover for those residents who have gone, Schools closing, Hospitals closing. SERIOUSLY, Buffalo residents are worried about teams leaving, when it all boils down, who really cares. They both SUCK anyways, in two ways. They SUCK you dry for new updates to the stadiums and everything associated with that, Parking, Food and Beer sales. They SUCK you dry for tickets, sports gear, TV subscriptions. And they SUCK Period on the playing field and Ice. Come on people, buffalonians have bigger fish to fry, than to be worried about the sports teams leaving town. I do have an idea, though, play the same card as Corporate America, "Pay them for performance". I think if we adjusted the rates of admission, based on the quality of the performance. We could all go see the Bills and the Sabres for next to nothing if not free.

#25 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 16 October 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The NFL -- i.e. the other 31 owners -- are just going to give the Bills $100MM - $200MM?  That doesn't sound right.  They might lend the Bills the money, but that means the debt service has to be covered via stadium revenues.

And I appreciate that the county has funded a couple of rounds of renovations at $100MM or so, but with a stadium costing at least $750MM, we're still about $500MM short even if the NFL is generous.  There is no way a WNY stadium will generate enough revenue to cover the debt service on $600MM - $700MM in borrowed money.

I'm almost positive the NFL has a specific fund to assist in stadium construction and that it's not a debt service. I also don't think an open-air stadium costs $750 mil. Gillette stadium as built in the early 2000s for $325 mil. Even counting inflation I doubt the total cost for a new open air stadium today would exceed $500 million. Domes, of course, are another matter entirely.

Edit: I stand corrected. The NFL's G4 program is a loan of up to $200 mil that gets repaid over 15-25 years by PSLs. I'm still right about stadium costs though :P

Edited by TrueBluePhD, 16 October 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#26 SwampD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostJHeinz4727, on 16 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

And really if both teams go.........Who the hell really cares. With the loss of Industry and jobs, wage and benefit cuts for those left, that are fortunate enough to be working. Higher taxes for residents here, to cover for those residents who have gone, Schools closing, Hospitals closing. SERIOUSLY, Buffalo residents are worried about teams leaving, when it all boils down, who really cares. They both SUCK anyways, in two ways. They SUCK you dry for new updates to the stadiums and everything associated with that, Parking, Food and Beer sales. They SUCK you dry for tickets, sports gear, TV subscriptions. And they SUCK Period on the playing field and Ice. Come on people, buffalonians have bigger fish to fry, than to be worried about the sports teams leaving town. I do have an idea, though, play the same card as Corporate America, "Pay them for performance". I think if we adjusted the rates of admission, based on the quality of the performance. We could all go see the Bills and the Sabres for next to nothing if not free.
Apparently you haven't been reading the ticket prices on Stub Hub that Ghost has been posting.

#27 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:57 PM

It sounds like an expat that wanted to write an article about how crazy his former sports town was, but missed the mark on a major talking point or two.

I am firmly aware of Ralph Wilsons impending mortality, and I understand the consequences of what will happen if his will directly of indirectly (see: kids) puts the team up for auction before Los Angeles finds a team to fill Farmers Field, but none of that is anything close to for sure.  We need him to live long enough to prevent LA from buying us when the new lease enters cheap-to-move mode, but not so long that he somehow prevents us from becoming a contender in the next 20 years.

Sabres aren't going anywhere.  At least until Terry and Kim both die, which, hopefully, will be a long, long time from now.

View PostEleven, on 16 October 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

It's improved greatly in the nine years I've been here.

And I still have desires of moving back some day so I can help in the rebuild.

#28 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

View Postweave, on 16 October 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I really, truly believe that it is inevitable that the Bills are leaving Buffalo.  I'm not sure it is as close as next season, but I can't see the team staying with an outdated stadium and the lack of corporate support in western NY.  Maybe that is part of the reason I am not emotionally invested in the team any more.  I don't think they are here for the long haul.

The Sabres on the other hand, have an up-to-date facility and an owner committed to Buffalo.  And there really is no better market for hockey that doesn't already have a team.  I can't see the Sabres leaving.

I can assure you that, if ever, it's AT LEAST a decade away.

#29 nfreeman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 16 October 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm almost positive the NFL has a specific fund to assist in stadium construction and that it's not a debt service. I also don't think an open-air stadium costs $750 mil. Gillette stadium as built in the early 2000s for $325 mil. Even counting inflation I doubt the total cost for a new open air stadium today would exceed $500 million. Domes, of course, are another matter entirely.

Edit: I stand corrected. The NFL's G4 program is a loan of up to $200 mil that gets repaid over 15-25 years by PSLs. I'm still right about stadium costs though :P

Broncos stadium -- 2001 -- $400MM
Seahawks stadium -- 2002 -- $430MM
Cardinals stadium -- 2006 -- $455MM
Eagles stadium -- 2003 -- $512MM
Cowboys stadium -- 2009 -- $1.3B
Giants stadium -- 2010 -- $1.6B

All open-air stadiums (or, if you prefer, stadia).  

They don't get cheaper over time.

View PostDStebb, on 16 October 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

I can assure you that, if ever, it's AT LEAST a decade away.

What on earth is this based on?  The Bills can walk in 2020 for a nominal escape fee.

This post illustrates why adults generally don't find the assurances of kids that reassuring.

#30 87168

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:25 PM

You started this very same thread over in the Bills forums. Why?

#31 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:37 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 16 October 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

What on earth is this based on?  The Bills can walk in 2020 for a nominal escape fee.

This post illustrates why adults generally don't find the assurances of kids that reassuring.

Okay. At least seven years. Definitely nothing going on within the year, and that was my point in the first place...


Also, in what world is Cowboys Stadium an open air stadium? It's a dome with a retractable roof...

Edited by DStebb, 16 October 2013 - 07:39 PM.


#32 weave

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostDStebb, on 16 October 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Okay. At least seven years. Definitely nothing going on within the year, and that was my point in the first place...


Also, in what world is Cowboys Stadium an open air stadium? It's a dome with a retractable roof...

When Ralph dies all bets are off.

#33 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postweave, on 16 October 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

When Ralph dies all bets are off.

Sure. But chances are they'll wait out this lease either way.

And if Ralph Wilson died this offseason they wouldn't move the team immediately for multiple reasons.

1. Ralph Wilson is considered one of the pioneers of the NFL (NFL/AFL merge more specifically). So they likely wouldn't just take the team immediately out of pure respect.

2. You can't move a team in one offseason. Especially with no other NFL-ready stadium.

3. You need buyers. Unless his family already has buyers and is waiting for him to die, that will take a while.

Edited by DStebb, 16 October 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#34 Robviously

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

View Postweave, on 16 October 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I really, truly believe that it is inevitable that the Bills are leaving Buffalo. I'm not sure it is as close as next season, but I can't see the team staying with an outdated stadium and the lack of corporate support in western NY.  Maybe that is part of the reason I am not emotionally invested in the team any more.  I don't think they are here for the long haul.

The Sabres on the other hand, have an up-to-date facility and an owner committed to Buffalo.  And there really is no better market for hockey that doesn't already have a team.  I can't see the Sabres leaving.
Sadly, I agree.  There aren't enough corporate dollars in WNY to support an NFL team.  There are barely any -- unless you think we can scoop up corporate sponsors from all the way up in Toronto.  (And if that's the case, why haven't we already done that?)  The Bills are already poor enough that they sell 1 home game a year.  What's the long term strategy?

I also don't think the NFL is super interested in staying in Buffalo.  To show you where their collective head is at, the league has their heart set on landing a team in London at some point.  With major international cities like London, Toronto, and Los Angeles all on the radar, I don't think Buffalo fits into what the NFL wants to be in the 21st century.

The Sabres seems safe for the foreseeable future, though.

#35 weave

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:45 PM

View PostDStebb, on 16 October 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Sure. But chances are they'll wait out this lease either way.

And if Ralph Wilson died this offseason they wouldn't move the team immediately for multiple reasons.

1. Ralph Wilson is considered one of the pioneers of the NFL (NFL/AFL merge more specifically). So they likely wouldn't just take the team immediately out of pure respect.

2. You can't move a team in one offseason. Especially with no other NFL-ready stadium.

3. You need buyers. Unless his family already has buyers and is waiting for him to die, that will take a while.

1. is wild speculation with nothing to back it up.

2. Los Angeles

3. See LA Dodgers for how quickly a sports franchise can be sold.  Exhibit B is the Buffalo Sabres.

When Ralph dies it may very well take awhile for the ownership to change hands.  It may take a few years.  So maybe the timeframe is longer.  But it surely isn't guaranteed that it will be a long process.  And when that process ends my opinion is that the Bills will have a new city and a new name.

#36 nfreeman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:11 PM

To me it comes down to dollars and cents. I can't escape the simple arithmetic. The bills will end up selling for at least $700MM and maybe as much as $1 billion. Most of that purchase price will be financed with debt. There is no way the WNY region can produce enough revenue to support the debt service on that number.

I hate to say it, but by the time that seven-year cheap escape valve becomes usable, Ralph will probably be gone.  At that point, economic realities will force the new owner to look to greener pastures, even in the unlikely event he weren't inclined to do so already.

#37 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:14 PM

View Postweave, on 16 October 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

1. is wild speculation with nothing to back it up.

2. Los Angeles

3. See LA Dodgers for how quickly a sports franchise can be sold.  Exhibit B is the Buffalo Sabres.

When Ralph dies it may very well take awhile for the ownership to change hands.  It may take a few years.  So maybe the timeframe is longer.  But it surely isn't guaranteed that it will be a long process.  And when that process ends my opinion is that the Bills will have a new city and a new name.

Oh. Los Angeles has an NFL ready stadium?... If they did, they'd have a team by now. And the Dodgers are a desirable asset that didn't have to be moved. Nobody is buying the Bills with the intention to move them without first gaining all of the necessary pieces to move the team which just aren't in place and won't be for a few years at the earliest.

Edited by DStebb, 16 October 2013 - 09:15 PM.


#38 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 16 October 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Broncos stadium -- 2001 -- $400MM
Seahawks stadium -- 2002 -- $430MM
Cardinals stadium -- 2006 -- $455MM
Eagles stadium -- 2003 -- $512MM
Cowboys stadium -- 2009 -- $1.3B
Giants stadium -- 2010 -- $1.6B

All open-air stadiums (or, if you prefer, stadia).  

They don't get cheaper over time.

Are you really going to argue those stadiums are comparable to what would be built in Buffalo?  The new Giants stadium, for instance, had A) much more expensive real estate, B) is a joint venture between two teams and C) seats 83k...no way in hell a new Bills stadium is made to hold 83k.  And the Cowboys stadium, seriously?  It's a friggin' retractable dome that can seat over 100k.

Edit: To expand, even the Broncos stadium seats 76k and would cost $528MM in today's dollars.  Gillette stadium (completed in 2002--1 year AFTER the Broncos stadium), meanwhile, only seats 68k and cost $422MM in today's dollars.  I'm sure it's more complicated as far as design and amenities go, but for simplicity's sake, that's $100MM less for 8k less seats.  Get the Bills a new stadium at ~62k or so, open-air, and it's very doable for far less than you're thinking.

Edited by TrueBluePhD, 16 October 2013 - 09:22 PM.


#39 weave

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostDStebb, on 16 October 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Oh. Los Angeles has an NFL ready stadium?... If they did, they'd have a team by now. And the Dodgers are a desirable asset that didn't have to be moved. Nobody is buying the Bills with the intention to move them without first gaining all of the necessary pieces to move the team which just aren't in place and won't be for a few years at the earliest.

Quote

Farmers Field, a proposed 78,000-seat stadium on a 1.7-million square foot project adjacent to the Convention Center and Staples Center, remains the frontrunner if a franchise (or franchises) decides to relocate to Southern California. “AEG is a much more credible deal than the others,” Matheson said.
The project has a naming rights deal in place, a $50-million public transportation and infrastructure plan to get spectators in and out of downtown and a deal with the city to begin construction that runs through October 2014. If AEG can secure a team after the 2013 season and the move is approved by NFL owners next March, the company could break ground for construction within 90 days. Farmers Field could be open for the 2018 season with a relocated franchise likely playing at the Rose Bowl until then.

The plan in LA is simply waiting for a team to come available.

Edited by weave, 16 October 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#40 Tankalicious

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:20 PM

View Postweave, on 16 October 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:


That's going to be ready in one offseason? Yea, totally. Considering they've been working at it for years now and it hasn't even started.

I'm not saying the team couldn't move to LA in the future. But right now, it's in Buffalo and won't be leaving in a single offseason.

Edited by DStebb, 16 October 2013 - 09:20 PM.






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