Jump to content


Photo

Is it Too early to put Grigo and Bust in the same sentence?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
247 replies to this topic

#1 theesir

theesir

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 126 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:21 AM

First the "I Knows"

I know he's only 19
I know he will mature
I know he has little NHL experience.

I also know that I have not seen a single moment that he has been on the ice where I have thought "WOW!"

What I'm asking is, if there is something special there, shouldn't there be SOME glimpse of it? Some moment where you say now I see what makes him special and as he gets older will grow in him?

This was a guy touted as a possible top 3 pick, he fell to us and we felt we got a steal. Now I'm not so sure.

Anyone? Has anyone seen something I'm missing?

By the way, today John Vogl is reporting he has been pulled off his regular line in practice and is filling in for CoHo who is not practicing.

Edited by theesir, 09 October 2013 - 11:30 AM.


#2 Claude_Verret

Claude_Verret

    Tankless

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,920 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

He could be a bust, and he could still be great. All that is certain at this point is that he doesn't belong on NHL ice.

#3 Heimdall

Heimdall

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,696 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:28 AM

He doesn't belong on the ice at the moment, but who else do you got?
just hope he learns and gets more experienced.

#4 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:28 AM

He doesn't belong on the ice at the moment, but who else do you got?
just hope he learns and gets more experienced.


Larsson.

#5 theesir

theesir

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 126 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:30 AM

I'll reiterate my question. Has anyone even seen a FLASH of skill that gives you faith that there is a great player in there somewhere?

#6 TrueBluePhD

TrueBluePhD

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,153 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:32 AM

IMO if you haven't seen flashes if Grigorenko's talent then you've been watching with blinders on. That's not to downplay his deficiencies to this point, but he has definitely shown his hands and vision occasionally. Will it amount to anything? Who the F knows.

#7 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:34 AM

IMO if you haven't seen flashes if Grigorenko's talent then you've been watching with blinders on. That's not to downplay his deficiencies to this point, but he has definitely shown his hands and vision occasionally. Will it amount to anything? Who the F knows.


Two things we know for sure is that RR doesn't appreciate having him on the roster and Grigorenko's rope is the absolute shortest on the team.

#8 LTS

LTS

    There it is!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,554 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:36 AM

Agreed. There are times when you see it almost there. The question is.. will the switch flip or not? Will it be sooner or later? I'm not going to judge too much for at least half-season.

#9 nfreeman

nfreeman

    All I want is everything you got.

  • SS Mod Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,963 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:48 AM

Two things we know for sure is that RR doesn't appreciate having him on the roster and Grigorenko's rope is the absolute shortest on the team.


We don't know either of these things "for sure" at all.

I will say that if Griggy's on a short leash, it's quite likely that he's earned it.

#10 wjag

wjag

    Buffalo Sports -- Dysfunction Junction

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,634 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:54 AM

If you aren't willing to let these kids grow in the job, then what are they doing? What's the point of the rebuild? I'm okay giving away the year if the payback is some real game experience at the NHL-level for the youngsters and maturation.

Edited by wjag, 09 October 2013 - 11:54 AM.


#11 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:55 AM

We don't know either of these things "for sure" at all.

I will say that if Griggy's on a short leash, it's quite likely that he's earned it.


Maybe you don't, but I do know it based on RR's commentary and the way he utilizes Grigs. Plenty of other players on the team, including established vets, make egregious decisions and play poorly with seemingly no consequences with regard to ice time.

#12 TrueBluePhD

TrueBluePhD

    #fancystats

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,153 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:10 PM

Maybe you don't, but I do know it based on RR's commentary and the way he utilizes Grigs. Plenty of other players on the team, including established vets, make egregious decisions and play poorly with seemingly no consequences with regard to ice time.


The more things change...

#13 qwksndmonster

qwksndmonster

    ice

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,390 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:23 PM

It's too early by at least 2 years. This guy is my age. Glad I don't have to put up with this kind of pressure.

#14 jdp1

jdp1

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:37 PM

It's the complete lack of effort and involvement that is the huge concern. Making one unbelievable pass once every five games isn't going to cut it. All you need to do is compare the way Girgs (or even Flynn) hustles and competes when he's out there with the way Grigs essentially just glides around to see why Rolston doesn't trust him. He may have great hands or other talent, but he's going to be a bust if that aspect of his game doesn't change.

#15 bcSaberks

bcSaberks

    Fourth Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 547 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:39 PM

It's too early by at least 2 years. This guy is my age. Glad I don't have to put up with this kind of pressure.

Truth.

Yes it's too early, no he's hasn't shown a damn thing. Clinging to http://www.hockeydb.....php?pid=143915
(1.5ppg)

#16 nfreeman

nfreeman

    All I want is everything you got.

  • SS Mod Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,963 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

Maybe you don't, but I do know it based on RR's commentary and the way he utilizes Grigs. Plenty of other players on the team, including established vets, make egregious decisions and play poorly with seemingly no consequences with regard to ice time.


Really? Which RR comments, specifically, have given you the knowledge that he doesn't want Griggy on his roster?

#17 Munchma Quchi

Munchma Quchi

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,822 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:13 PM

Too early?


Yes. Why? This:

IMO if you haven't seen flashes if Grigorenko's talent then you've been watching with blinders on. That's not to downplay his deficiencies to this point, but he has definitely shown his hands and vision occasionally. Will it amount to anything? Who the F knows.


But in fairness, this:

Statistical expectations for possible incoming non-NHLers on an 82 game season, based on NHL equivalency methods:
...
Grigorenko expected to earn 11 points, earned 5.
...

Seems like this method isn't too far off, with the exception of Grigorenko, whom I believe was under-/mis-used, resulting in an effective skew of his games played.



And to add to that, the shootout winner against Montreal.

#18 That Aud Smell

That Aud Smell

    That Nostalgic Olfactory Blend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,116 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

I'm with TrueBlue: The guy has shown flashes of the talent that made him a potential top-5 pick.

But Rolston's mantra of a guy's "compete" (I hate when verbs become nouns and vice-versa) is paramount here. And I'm sure that concept is not unique to our squad, either.

Grigorenko's "compete" is marginal, at best, and sometimes appears non-existent. Is it there, waiting to be unearthed once his brain catches up with the game? Or is it just not there? (Or perhaps not there in sufficient quantity?)

#19 sicknfla

sicknfla

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:35 PM

I have coached baseball at a pretty high level for 15 years. Every team I have coached there has been that one player (sometimes more) who just annoy the ###### out of me. Grigo is one of those that would annoy me. RR might think that tough love is what this kid needs. We only see the on ice part. Who knows what the locker room and weight room part is like.

#20 BuffaloBorn

BuffaloBorn

    We're Gonna Win That Cup!

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

He'll be great, give him time

#21 MDFan

MDFan

    Prospect

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 137 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

In reality, yes, much too early. In Buffalo sports fans terms, probably not, given that over on TSW they are already calling EJ Manuel a bust.

#22 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    from the bottom to the top

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,750 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

29 games for a 19yr old in the NHL. He shouldn't have 29 games because he should have stayed in Quebec. i will wait to pass judgement on him.

#23 sicknfla

sicknfla

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:49 PM

29 games for a 19yr old in the NHL. He shouldn't have 29 games because he should have stayed in Quebec. i will wait to pass judgement on him.


Agreed. So much more maturing yet to do. Both mentally and physically. Sometimes its easy to forget how young these guys are. I think he will be just fine - just going to take time.

#24 ThirtyEight

ThirtyEight

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,107 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

Only 5 Sabres have points. Only 4 players have scored a goal. Grigo has looked good when I have seen him play (only about 2 games in total) this year. He is much improved but has a ways to go. He needs the AHL for a year. Let's not let Grigo become our Kadri

#25 nucci

nucci

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:55 PM

First the "I Knows"

I know he's only 19
I know he will mature
I know he has little NHL experience.

I also know that I have not seen a single moment that he has been on the ice where I have thought "WOW!"

What I'm asking is, if there is something special there, shouldn't there be SOME glimpse of it? Some moment where you say now I see what makes him special and as he gets older will grow in him?

This was a guy touted as a possible top 3 pick, he fell to us and we felt we got a steal. Now I'm not so sure.

Anyone? Has anyone seen something I'm missing?

By the way, today John Vogl is reporting he has been pulled off his regular line in practice and is filling in for CoHo who is not practicing.

Yes

#26 dudacek

dudacek

    The shotgun over the mantlepiece

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,715 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:57 PM

Way too early to label him a bust. He was just the 12th pick and it happened just 16 months ago.
Not too early to start questioning the idea he can be a first-line centre.

Edited by dudacek, 09 October 2013 - 01:58 PM.


#27 BuffaloBorn

BuffaloBorn

    We're Gonna Win That Cup!

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:01 PM


Edited by BuffaloBorn, 09 October 2013 - 02:01 PM.


#28 Kristian

Kristian

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,773 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

Hertl is 19 too, wouldn't you know....

Picked 17th.

I know, I know, waaaaaaay too small a sample size to properly judge, but how come the Sabres scouts always seem to get the short end of the stick on these guys?

Girgensons, on the other hand...

Edited by Kristian, 09 October 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#29 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    from the bottom to the top

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,750 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

Hertl is 19 too, wouldn't you know....

and he scored 4goals in a game with 9... when was the last time the Sabres scored 9 goals in a single game?

Stafford had a hat trick in back to back games, still he isn't a top 6 guy.

Great players are consistent. That is what keeps Vanek in the very good category.

#30 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

Hertl is 19 too, wouldn't you know....


At 19 years 330 days, he's almost 20. Another year older than Grigs.

#31 Kristian

Kristian

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,773 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

and he scored 4goals in a game with 9... when was the last time the Sabres scored 9 goals in a single game?

Stafford had a hat trick in back to back games, still he isn't a top 6 guy.

Great players are consistent. That is what keeps Vanek in the very good category.


Yeah, I kind of elaborated a little, you guys are just too trigger happy :-)

#32 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    from the bottom to the top

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,750 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

Yeah, I kind of elaborated a little, you guys are just too trigger happy :-)

lol I see that. :flirt: :P

#33 Kristian

Kristian

    Second Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,773 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:50 PM

At 19 years 330 days, he's almost 20. Another year older than Grigs.


And the Sabres still had the option of picking him over Grigo.

Look, I'm not saying someone should've known about this, or be blamed for something, I'm just annoyed that our so-called top prospect looks like he wouldn't even crack the 2nd line on the Amerks, while someone who went behind him in the draft, scores crazy goals for his powerhouse team.

But I guess, in more ways than one, the reason is exactly that - He plays for a talent powerhouse. And apparently there's a reason they're good, even if they always choke in the playoffs.

#34 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

And the Sabres still had the option of picking him over Grigo.

Look, I'm not saying someone should've known about this, or be blamed for something, I'm just annoyed that our so-called top prospect looks like he wouldn't even crack the 2nd line on the Amerks, while someone who went behind him in the draft, scores crazy goals for his powerhouse team.

But I guess, in more ways than one, the reason is exactly that - He plays for a talent powerhouse. And apparently there's a reason they're good, even if they always choke in the playoffs.


Better environment for a young creative player on a good team with aspirations and playing with other talented players.

#35 carpandean

carpandean

    If it ain't worth making a chart, it ain't worth saying.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,125 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:04 PM

and he scored 4goals in a game with 9... when was the last time the Sabres scored 9 goals in a single game?


January 27, 2009 (unless I missed one), they scored 10 against Edmonton. A lot of 7's (at least one per season) over the years since.


Great players are consistent.


Well, Hertl did have two more goals in his other two games, so he's off to a good start.

#36 LGR4GM

LGR4GM

    from the bottom to the top

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,750 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:11 PM

January 27, 2009 (unless I missed one), they scored 10 against Edmonton. A lot of 7's (at least one per season) over the years since.




Well, Hertl did have two more goals in his other two games, so he's off to a good start.

He is off to a great start. His Shot% is .462... that is unsustainable.

#37 26CornerBlitz

26CornerBlitz

    1970

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,097 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

Sabres prospect Mikhail Grigorenko could become healthy scratch again: http://www.buffaloho...-scratch-again/

#38 shrader

shrader

    Enduring tortures most of which rhyme

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,147 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

Well, Hertl did have two more goals in his other two games, so he's off to a good start.


I always love looking this one up: Patrick Lalime started his career with a 14-0-2 streak. That one might as well be the king of all "wait a few more games before you judge this guy" examples.

#39 BuffaloBorn

BuffaloBorn

    We're Gonna Win That Cup!

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:36 PM

Marek Zagrapan anybody? Another Russian. was drafted 13th

We all know how that went.

He was also in the Q, putting up very similar numbers as Grigs

Zagrapan's nationatity is from Slovakia*****

Edited by BuffaloBorn, 09 October 2013 - 03:39 PM.


#40 SabresBillsFan

SabresBillsFan

    Third Liner

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,663 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:46 PM

Grigs should have never played last year and they wasted a year of his rookie contract. That said he should still be in junior this year as well. His skating isn't great and he glides way too much. There is a reason why he dropped in the draft. Too me they need to send him down to junior so he can figure out what he needs to do to be a nhl player on an everyday basis. Why rush these kids. This team is scary bad and Girgensons and Ristolainen both need to be in Rochester .