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So What Really Does Stop This Team From being Good


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#1 CallawaySabres

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

Yes, they are young but with Vanek and Miller now being here until at least the deadline, why can't this team have a successful season? I have not really let myself go there because I just assumed both would be gone.

Miller is going to have to be lights out if he wants a nice extension with Buffalo (or another team) and if that happens, maybe Vanek wants to stay. All I know is that I have 20 plus games this year and my attitude is taking a 180 starting today. Well, that's about all I got until October....................

#2 Derrico

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 03:23 PM

You know what, I don't think you are completely crazy.  Do I think they're a lock for a playoff spot?  No chance, but at the same time it would not shock me.  This is if and only if they keep Vanek and Miller (which I am not thrilled about).  I think they will surprise some teams.  We had a decent record with Rolston behind the bench and I just can't see Myers or Stafford giving us any less than they did last year.  Add in Miller and Vanek in contract years and hopefully some improvements from some of the young guys including Grigs, Foligno and Pysyk and I think this adds up to a not great but decent hockey club.  Although this is the end of August so maybe that's the reason I'm drinking the koolaide.

#3 MattPie

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

It's the as-yet unseen 3rd uniforms.

#4 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostMattPie, on 27 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

It's the as-yet unseen 3rd uniforms.

/thread

#5 weave

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

What stops this team from being good?  Center depth and right wing scoring are good places to start I guess.

#6 Kristian

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:40 PM

No defense, no centers, and no scoring from anyone other than Vanek is what keeps this team from being good.

#7 wyldnwoody44

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

Its the ancient Indian buffalo curse, plain and simple..... That or the consistent out of shape, heartless underachieving team we have had since the ted Nolan days... And if all else fails, blame the locker room or something completely non relatable ;)

#8 PASabreFan

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:00 PM

Improper capitalization. If the fans can't even get that much right, what chance do the "hockey" people have?

#9 nfreeman

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:27 PM

View PostCallawaySabres, on 27 August 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Yes, they are young but with Vanek and Miller now being here until at least the deadline, why can't this team have a successful season? I have not really let myself go there because I just assumed both would be gone.

Miller is going to have to be lights out if he wants a nice extension with Buffalo (or another team) and if that happens, maybe Vanek wants to stay. All I know is that I have 20 plus games this year and my attitude is taking a 180 starting today. Well, that's about all I got until October....................

Good man.

#10 qwksndmonster

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:43 PM

A lot of things have to go right for the Sabres to be good this year.  Gotta hope.

#11 Claude_Verret

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostMattPie, on 27 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

It's the as-yet unseen 3rd uniforms.

And by extension, the owner who foisted these jerseys upon the very fans that seem to want them.

#12 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

What stops Buffalo from hosting the Winter Olympics???

#13 wonderbread

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

Nothing. Everything. Mostly Darcy.

#14 qwksndmonster

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:16 AM

Ghost and wonder :lol:

Edited by qwksndmonster, 28 August 2013 - 01:16 AM.


#15 PASabreFan

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:16 AM

Miller in a contract and an Olympic year, Vanek in a contract year, Myers in a comeback year and Enroth in a breakout year. It could work (although I'm not sure how Enroth breaks out if Miller is playing well). Add in the stench of Lindy finall totally wafting away and Rolston presenting himself as the real deal and, hey, maybe we've got something here. There is a fall of 2005 feel to it.

#16 That Aud Smell

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:50 AM

Fair to say that the local paper's editorial board has already elicited Pegula's opinion on the matter? Or is that statment now dated?

Anyway, I'm more and more cottoning to the theorem stated here by one (some?) that excellence in the NHL is generally a function of your team's having a smallish core of elite talent (or, at least, players playing at elite levels). The Chicago model, basically. Yes there is also Boston, but I think maybe they're more of an exception than a repeatable rule. So, in a word: We lack a core of top-end talent. That's what's keeping us in the 9-12 slots, or worse.

View PostPASabreFan, on 28 August 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

There is a fall of 2005 feel to it.

love the idea, but that is a huge stretch.

#17 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:42 AM

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming. Just because you identify that it was spoiled fish that hung around too long and you throw it out, that doesn't stop the stench from seeping into the vents, fans, ice, and all the other foods. Unless you throw everything out, defrost the entire thing and scrub it down, then put about 6 boxes of baking soda in it.....you are going to be gagging for months when you open that fridge. Want a nice tomato salad? A cold glass of lemonade? Scrambled eggs? Good luck.....they are all ruined just from being trapped in the same close confines for so long with the rotten fish. The Sabres not only went away for the weekend and left 5 pounds of perch in the fridge.....they went away for years. It's the same fridge, and just because some want to give kudos to the GM for throwing out the bad fish, one by one, the stench is so deeply entrenched in everything that it is almost a lost cause to cook anything at this point. The stench is so bad that you can smell it in the bedroom if you leave the door open too long.

............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.

#18 PASabreFan

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:46 AM

View PostThat Aud Smell, on 28 August 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

love the idea, but that is a huge stretch.

I don't think anyone gave the Sabres much of a chance to make the playoffs before that season, let alone sniff a Cup.

#19 wjag

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 28 August 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming. Just because you identify that it was spoiled fish that hung around too long and you throw it out, that doesn't stop the stench from seeping into the vents, fans, ice, and all the other foods. Unless you throw everything out, defrost the entire thing and scrub it down, then put about 6 boxes of baking soda in it.....you are going to be gagging for months when you open that fridge. Want a nice tomato salad? A cold glass of lemonade? Scrambled eggs? Good luck.....they are all ruined just from being trapped in the same close confines for so long with the rotten fish. The Sabres not only went away for the weekend and left 5 pounds of perch in the fridge.....they went away for years. It's the same fridge, and just because some want to give kudos to the GM for throwing out the bad fish, one by one, the stench is so deeply entrenched in everything that it is almost a lost cause to cook anything at this point. The stench is so bad that you can smell it in the bedroom if you leave the door open too long.

............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.

That's being unkind to the Perch.  Why do you feel like you need to single out Perch?

#20 nfreeman

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:58 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 28 August 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming. Just because you identify that it was spoiled fish that hung around too long and you throw it out, that doesn't stop the stench from seeping into the vents, fans, ice, and all the other foods. Unless you throw everything out, defrost the entire thing and scrub it down, then put about 6 boxes of baking soda in it.....you are going to be gagging for months when you open that fridge. Want a nice tomato salad? A cold glass of lemonade? Scrambled eggs? Good luck.....they are all ruined just from being trapped in the same close confines for so long with the rotten fish. The Sabres not only went away for the weekend and left 5 pounds of perch in the fridge.....they went away for years. It's the same fridge, and just because some want to give kudos to the GM for throwing out the bad fish, one by one, the stench is so deeply entrenched in everything that it is almost a lost cause to cook anything at this point. The stench is so bad that you can smell it in the bedroom if you leave the door open too long.

............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.

This is certainly where the Bills are, although it does look like they attempted some fridge-scrubbing this offseason.  The Sabres may or may not be there -- and this is why many here, including me, did not want the team to bottom out last year.

#21 Icehole

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:09 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 28 August 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming.
............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.
Eventually, the bacteria causing the fish to stink will run out of fish to eat and the stench will stop due in part to all the partial cleaning.  The problem is if new fish is left in the fridge or old milk then the process repeats itself because a little bit of bacteria will always remain until a new fridge is bought, or one stays on top of it to make sure nothing gets left in the fridge for any length of time.

P.S. Sabres D should be a lot better.  Also, the team has a chance with some of the young guys coming up to improve scoring, but the bad fish er Stafford remains and Miller's presence has out worn its welcome too and is about the hit critical stench imo.  So, until those two are cleaned out, I am not confident of any real improvement.... Also Darcy remains.... enough said.

P.S. I worked for a commercial fisherman in high school on the Georgian Bay and the ice house smell fully loaded was special... A whole different scenario than just a bad fridge.

Edited by North Buffalo, 28 August 2013 - 07:13 AM.


#22 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:22 AM

View PostNorth Buffalo, on 28 August 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

bacteria

Darcy remains...



View Postwjag, on 28 August 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

That's being unkind to the Perch.  Why do you feel like you need to single out Perch?
Maybe because they are small?

View Postnfreeman, on 28 August 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

This is certainly where the Bills are, although it does look like they attempted some fridge-scrubbing this offseason.  The Sabres may or may not be there -- and this is why many here, including me, did not want the team to bottom out last year.
The Bills turned over 95% of their coaching staff, the GM (sort of), and much of their veteran "core", along with making a move for a franchise QB in a matter of months. Since Pegula took over, 99% of the front office and executive group remains the same, and even 40% of the coaching staff and 2/3 of the captains are the same. Bacteria lingers......

#23 Icehole

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 28 August 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

The Bills turned over 95% of their coaching staff, the GM (sort of), and much of their veteran "core", along with making a move for a franchise QB in a matter of months. Since Pegula took over, 99% of the front office and executive group remains the same, and even 40% of the coaching staff and 2/3 of the captains are the same. Bacteria lingers......

So in the vein of this thread, who should replace Darcy...  I found some intereting articles...  see new thread.

http://forums.sabres...-replace-darcy/

Edited by North Buffalo, 28 August 2013 - 07:50 AM.


#24 LGR4GM

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:06 AM

"You gotta have heart. Miles and miles of heart."

#25 CallawaySabres

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:12 AM

I just have a feeling Miller is going to bring it this year and if that happens, anything is possible......

#26 That Aud Smell

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostPASabreFan, on 28 August 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

I don't think anyone gave the Sabres much of a chance to make the playoffs before that season, let alone sniff a Cup.

Maybe so. I just don't see any meaningful parallels between the two rosters and the comparative states of the league. Not yet, anyway.

#27 Sabre Dance

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 28 August 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You ever leave fish in the fridge for the weekend and forget about it when you go out of town? When you get back and open the fridge, the stench is overwhelming. Just because you identify that it was spoiled fish that hung around too long and you throw it out, that doesn't stop the stench from seeping into the vents, fans, ice, and all the other foods. Unless you throw everything out, defrost the entire thing and scrub it down, then put about 6 boxes of baking soda in it.....you are going to be gagging for months when you open that fridge. Want a nice tomato salad? A cold glass of lemonade? Scrambled eggs? Good luck.....they are all ruined just from being trapped in the same close confines for so long with the rotten fish. The Sabres not only went away for the weekend and left 5 pounds of perch in the fridge.....they went away for years. It's the same fridge, and just because some want to give kudos to the GM for throwing out the bad fish, one by one, the stench is so deeply entrenched in everything that it is almost a lost cause to cook anything at this point. The stench is so bad that you can smell it in the bedroom if you leave the door open too long.

............until there is a new fridge with entirely new inventory.....or the current fridge is scrubbed thoroughly and not just a token box of baking soda put inside....the long lingering effects of this debacle will have us gagging for years. Huge mistakes were made, and the course of trying to correct those have been too little too late.

I really like this analogy.  I could never see the reasoning that just because Darcy was no longer "financially constrained" after TP bought the team that the results would be any different. Darcy's body of work under previous ownership speaks for itself; we're now going into the third full season with Pegula as the owner and the team could be worse than last year (which is really saying something). I agree - clean house from top to bottom. Too much complacency, not enough accountability with the current front office.  Call it an infusion of new blood, a heart transplant...whatever.  Just do it...

Edited by Sabre Dance, 28 August 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#28 bunomatic

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:04 AM

my short answer. The fact that TPegs is the ultimate fanboi. In hindsight changes should have been made immediately upon the purchase of the team based on results of previous seasons. Excusing the losing is a copout and ultimately fed into the lack of accountability that already existed in spades within this franchise. Its a results based business and they had it backwards in Buffalo. They were rewarding the people that simply put just couldn't get the job done.

#29 apuszczalowski

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:30 AM

Whats stops this team from being good?

Probably the same thing that stops your aunt from being your Uncle......... BALLS

Also a competent General Manager, players that your not hoping "This will be the year they finally breakout or be productive again"


Sure, its possible that they could surprise us all and be a great team next season, but I could also win the lottery tomorrow

#30 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:00 AM

View Postweave, on 27 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

What stops this team from being good?  Center depth and right wing scoring are good places to start I guess.

This.

View Postqwksndmonster, on 27 August 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

A lot of things have to go right for the Sabres to be good this year.  Gotta hope.

And this.

I really don't have much to add.  There's still too many holes (important ones) and too much that has to go right for this team to be good for me to think it's even slightly realistic.  We need Stafford to rebound, Armia to produce top-6 scoring from game 1, Myers to rebound in a big way, Pysyk to be ready to handle top-4 minutes, either Larsson or Girgensons to be able to handle the tough defensive minutes, Hodgson to learn how to at least be adequate defensively Grigorenko to produce top-6 offense...and that's just off the top of my head, there may be more.  If all of that happens, we'll be damn good.  But the most likely outcome is some of that goes right, some unforeseen things go wrong, and we end up where we've been for three years.

View PostCallawaySabres, on 28 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

I just have a feeling Miller is going to bring it this year and if that happens, anything is possible......

Miller's been bringing it for years, the rest of the team hasn't.  And I saw no changes made in the offseason to lead me to believe this year will be any different.

#31 Icehole

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:05 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 28 August 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

  But the most likely outcome is some of that goes right, some unforeseen things go wrong, and we end up where we've been for three years.

Purgatory...:(

#32 PASabreFan

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostSabre Dance, on 28 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I really like this analogy.  I could never see the reasoning that just because Darcy was no longer "financially constrained" after TP bought the team that the results would be any different. Darcy's body of work under previous ownership speaks for itself; we're now going into the third full season with Pegula as the owner and the team could be worse than last year (which is really saying something). I agree - clean house from top to bottom. Too much complacency, not enough accountability with the current front office.  Call it an infusion of new blood, a heart transplant...whatever.  Just do it...

Darcy's been constrained in different ways. The evidence clearly suggests it was Terry's, not Darcy's, vision to spend all that money in 2011. The so-called rebuild might also be Terry's call (Darcy did say the extent of it would be Terry's call). Until your strategic hockey decisions are being made by your general manager and not your low-information owner, I'm not sure it matters who the GM is. (And I believe you won't get a top-notch GM in here as long as that condition exists.)

#33 LGR4GM

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:08 AM

Bad 3rd Jersey's stop this team from being good, duh!

#34 wjag

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:12 AM

I'll go with Center, Defense and coaching.

#35 nfreeman

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:16 AM

View PostPASabreFan, on 28 August 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Darcy's been constrained in different ways. The evidence clearly suggests it was Terry's, not Darcy's, vision to spend all that money in 2011. The so-called rebuild might also be Terry's call (Darcy did say the extent of it would be Terry's call). Until your strategic hockey decisions are being made by your general manager and not your low-information owner, I'm not sure it matters who the GM is. (And I believe you won't get a top-notch GM in here as long as that condition exists.)

First of all, saying "the evidence clearly suggests..." is way too strong.

Second, even if TP did push DR to sign Leino and Ehrhoff, how did that constrain Darcy?  Were there other guys who DR would've acquired and who would've become difference-makers in the absence of those 2?  And how much better would this other hypothetical defenseman have been than Ehrhoff?  Also, Leino didn't play 95% of last year, so there was room for someone else to contribute in his absence.

At least 25 NHL GMs would love to be "constrained" by their owners in the way that DR has been constrained by TP.

#36 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:36 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 28 August 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

First of all, saying "the evidence clearly suggests..." is way too strong.

Second, even if TP did push DR to sign Leino and Ehrhoff, how did that constrain Darcy?  Were there other guys who DR would've acquired and who would've become difference-makers in the absence of those 2?  And how much better would this other hypothetical defenseman have been than Ehrhoff?  Also, Leino didn't play 95% of last year, so there was room for someone else to contribute in his absence.

At least 25 NHL GMs would love to be "constrained" by their owners in the way that DR has been constrained by TP.

*raises hand*

You cannot sign a better defenseman than Ehrhoff for $4MM.  If we were to assume that Pegula is the only reason we got both Ehrhoff and Leino, then he's hitting on 50% of his decisions.  And Ehrhoff is certainly a bigger boom for $4MM than Leino is a bust for $4.5MM (thanks amnesty clause!....yes Shrader, I used amnesty on purpose).  I'll take it.

#37 Icehole

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 28 August 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

*raises hand*

You cannot sign a better defenseman than Ehrhoff for $4MM.  If we were to assume that Pegula is the only reason we got both Ehrhoff and Leino, then he's hitting on 50% of his decisions.  And Ehrhoff is certainly a bigger boom for $4MM than Leino is a bust for $4.5MM (thanks amnesty clause!....yes Shrader, I used amnesty on purpose).  I'll take it.

Darcy and I have said this before seems to have a knack for finding good D and goaltenders, but is inept when it comes to forwards.  Leino was a mistake because he was supposed to fill the glaring hole at center, not wing and Darcy way overpaid for him.

Also, Darcy didn't insist on sitting Vanek and Miller down the stretch, no guarantee, to make sure the Sabres received a top 4 pick and a chance at one of the top offensive guys.
No need to repeat the rest of the history on that issue, other than why hasn't Stafford been traded for draft picks or a prospect.

#38 LTS

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 28 August 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

*raises hand*

You cannot sign a better defenseman than Ehrhoff for $4MM.  If we were to assume that Pegula is the only reason we got both Ehrhoff and Leino, then he's hitting on 50% of his decisions.  And Ehrhoff is certainly a bigger boom for $4MM than Leino is a bust for $4.5MM (thanks amnesty clause!....yes Shrader, I used amnesty on purpose).  I'll take it.

I agree.  Does anyone think there isn't a team in the NHL that wouldn't take Ehrhoff for $4MM?

I think the end of this season there are 3 players and 2 amnesty buyouts.  Myers, Leino, and Stafford are all on notice.  I still believe Leino can produce at the level desired but he has to avoid injuries.  This could be that year.  I'm not even going to prognosticate on Myers and Stafford.

Myers will have to justify the length of his contract this year to be kept.

I think the Sabres could be good. If their chemistry works and they can play hard.  I'm not worried, this season is going to happen and I'm not expecting great things.  Progress is all I ask.

#39 PASabreFan

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:31 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 28 August 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

First of all, saying "the evidence clearly suggests..." is way too strong.

Second, even if TP did push DR to sign Leino and Ehrhoff, how did that constrain Darcy?  Were there other guys who DR would've acquired and who would've become difference-makers in the absence of those 2?  And how much better would this other hypothetical defenseman have been than Ehrhoff?  Also, Leino didn't play 95% of last year, so there was room for someone else to contribute in his absence.

At least 25 NHL GMs would love to be "constrained" by their owners in the way that DR has been constrained by TP.

It does clearly suggest that. We have Pegula's and Regier's words, after all. Terry said he wanted to sign those players and that they were his decision. He said it. Darcy said the approach taken that offseason was not the right way to build a team. Darcy also said Terry would determine the extent of the rebuild.

I just totally disagree that any GM with a nut bra wants that kind of direction from ownership.

#40 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 28 August 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

It does clearly suggest that. We have Pegula's and Regier's words, after all. Terry said he wanted to sign those players and that they were his decision. He said it. Darcy said the approach taken that offseason was not the right way to build a team. Darcy also said Terry would determine the extent of the rebuild.

I just totally disagree that any GM with a nut bra wants that kind of direction from ownership.

They may not want it, but that doesn't mean they don't get it.