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Vanek & Miller Contract Negotiations


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#1 LabattBlue

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

Can the Sabrea negotiate with Vanek & Miller prior to July 5th or whatever day it is, just no contract signings?

#2 ThirtyEight

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostLabattBlue, on 10 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Can the Sabrea negotiate with Vanek & Miller prior to July 5th or whatever day it is, just no contract signings?

They can have an agreement in place, informally. So  nothing stops one side screwing the other over. But yeah they can talk about it before the 5th. I expect they either go at the deadline or we expect an extension 6 days later

#3 LabattBlue

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostThirtyEight, on 10 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:



They can have an agreement in place, informally. So  nothing stops one side screwing the other over. But yeah they can talk about it before the 5th. I expect they either go at the deadline or we expect an extension 6 days later
The reason why I  am asking is that if both want out no matter what the offer, the sabres can push hard to trade them on draft weekend.

#4 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostLabattBlue, on 10 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Can the Sabrea negotiate with Vanek & Miller prior to July 5th or whatever day it is, just no contract signings?

I love the Freudian slip to feminine.......maybe we should have used that over the years.

I would think they both want to go bye-bye at this point. At least the trade returns are something to talk about.

#5 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:26 PM

Let's go down this road: let's say that both are willing to listen to deals.  Pretend that the team is in control of its own destiny.

To Vanek:
Do we make an offer?
How much do we offer?
What is the length of the offering?
Until what time is that offer available before we must consider other routes?

To Miller:
Do we make an offer?
How much do we offer?
What is the length of the offering?
Until what time is that offer available before we must consider other routes?

Now flip the roles.  Pretend that the players are in control of their own destiny.

If you're Vanek:
How much do you want?
How long do you want it?
What are your career goals?
Do you sign with the Sabres?

If you're Miller:
How much do you want?
How long do you want it?
What are you career goals?
Do you sign with the Sabres?

#6 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

Sabres: Miller: No....Vanek:Probably...5 for 35

Miller: See Ya

Vanek: 5 for 125....to win a Cup and play on a team that isn't crap in a city I enjoy.....No

#7 dudacek

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:02 PM

First question before we consider what Darcy would need to do to sell them on extensions, or whether they might be interested in listening:
Do they actually fit into Hockey Heaven's new plan?

Edited by dudacek, 11 May 2013 - 10:37 AM.


#8 ThirtyEight

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:00 AM

To Vanek:
Do we make an offer? Yes - important to try and retain stars
How much do we offer? 32.5
What is the length of the offering? 5 years (6.5 per - he has only hit the 70+ mark twice)
Until what time is that offer available before we must consider other routes? Up until the draft

To Miller:
Do we make an offer? Yes - important to try and retain stars
How much do we offer? 32.5
What is the length of the offering? 5 years (stars often get the same deals now a days - Malkin/Crosby - Sedins -Pairse/Sutter)
Until what time is that offer available before we must consider other routes? Up until the draft

Now flip the roles.  Pretend that the players are in control of their own destiny.

If you're Vanek:
How much do you want? 22.5
How long do you want it? 3 (7.5 average)
What are your career goals? Win the cup
Do you sign with the Sabres? If they offer me this money then yes - short enough you can move on to another team and still have time to win a cup, and long enough to see how close the Sabres are after a reboot. I think Vanek is traded though

If you're Miller:
How much do you want? 35
How long do you want it? 5
What are you career goals? Win the cup - ideally live closer to wife
Do you sign with the Sabres? About to be 33. Still got one more year. If you sign this contract you will be a sabre for life. If you don't, you need to join a team like the Vokoun did (sign a very cheap contract with a team that is likely to win the cup). Ultimately I think he signs

#9 Doug Glatt

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostLabattBlue, on 10 May 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

The reason why I  am asking is that if both want out no matter what the offer, the sabres can push hard to trade them on draft weekend.

I think this is the most likely answer. One or both will be gone.

Darcy has also said he has been in discussions with the teams in front of them about trading up. Hmmm... should be interesting.

#10 Grumpy

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:39 AM

Free agents of their ilk reap huge financial windfalls, usually more than their true value. I believe they will both try to go to free agency unless traded before July 2014.

Even if traded, they can opt not to sign a new contract with that team and still become free agents.  They are in great position to get a sweet deal and we have no cup contention carrot to dangle in front of them.

Edited by Grumpy, 11 May 2013 - 07:43 AM.


#11 PASabreFan

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:43 AM

View Postdrunken idiot, on 11 May 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I think this is the most likely answer. One or both will be gone.

Darcy has also said he has been in discussions with the teams in front of them about trading up. Hmmm... should be interesting.

It should be interesting. But it won't be. We all know that, deep down.

#12 waldo

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostGrumpy, on 11 May 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Free agents of their ilk reap huge financial windfalls, usually more than their true value. I believe they will both try to go to free agency unless traded before July 2014.

Even if traded, they can opt not to sign a new contract with that team and still become free agents.  They are in great position to get a sweet deal and we have no cup contention carrot to dangle in front of them.

+1...and how much do you give up for a  one year rental if you are a gm and interested in Miller and or Vanek after they tell  you they will not resign with you.There are some people here who think that Darcy will get the world for them when he trades. His only real players in a deal are teams on Miller or Vaneks list and  only if they express a willingness to extend with their new teams .

( goaltending is not important , Miller is overated, overpaid, has average goaltending skills, is in decline, gives up to many softies, is not a team guy and Vanek has underperformed, is overpaid, gets injured too much , is inconsistent, not an impact player,  and is lazy. lol  .)

Big question, if the Sabres try to resign them, are there no trade clauses. I do not think a agent would permit them to resign without one. They are worth so much more in the trade market resigned or as players willing to resign with their new teams.

It is going to cost max term and 14-15 mil per to resign them both if you can convince them you are capable of bringing in some real skill and talent/ i agree with La fontaine

Edited by waldo, 11 May 2013 - 10:37 AM.


#13 LaLaLaFontaine

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

To resign Vanek it will cost us Getzlaf and Perry money 8 for 8, if we get him for 60 million for 8 years we would be lucky.

This is the current market value for stars like him. I know you will hate it, but star power cost star money.
For Vanek i would invest the money, because i think he has not reached his peak yet.


Miller is more difficult, because his greatest strengths is his constant performance on a good level, with the potential for star level the one or other season. He won't sign for less than 6 years with a salary of 6 millions per year. Do we sign him for this kind of money?
I am not sure, i hope we could get more via trade for him.

To motivate Vanek to sign with us for the rest f his professional life, we need some signings like Iginla and / or Jagr. He needs some serious experienced talent to play with. Maybe also Miller as goalie.

Edited by LaLaLaFontaine, 11 May 2013 - 08:59 AM.


#14 dudacek

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:23 AM

I think Vanek gets more as a UFA than it would be smart for Buffalo to pay as a rebuilding team.
So to stay here he would have to take a discount. Wife and kids better love Buffalo.
I think they go after him hard for an extension, but I don't think a deal gets done.

Miller has a more limited market value and we could offer him market value.
But you get a sense that both sides think it might be time for a break-up.
I think he gets shopped hard at the draft, but Darcy might have to change tactics if he doesn't get the deal he wants.

How about Miller and a second to Philly for Couturier and number eleven?
To Tampa along with eight and 16 for three?
To Winnipeg with a second for Bogosian and 13?
To Winnipeg with eight and a second for Kane and 13?


In addition to lottery picks in this draft, I think Darcy will follow the Hodgson model and be looking hard at talented players who have yet to emerge.

Edited by dudacek, 11 May 2013 - 11:26 AM.


#15 DeLuca1967

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:36 AM

View Postdudacek, on 11 May 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

How about Miller and a second to Philly for Couturier and number eleven?
This is a deal I can fully endorse. I would go as far as calling it a coup if the Sabres could possibly pull it off. Couturier has size, is physical and at times has a nasty streak. He is only 20 years old and already has 120+ NHL games under his belt. I would be willing to part with Miller and the #16 pick for Couturier and the #11.

What a draft day it would be for Sabre fans if they could pull this deal off and somehow move Vanek to the Devils for the #9 pick or Carolina for the #5.

#16 DeLuca1967

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

Watching Vokoun starting for the Penguins, I am beginning to wonder if the Miller trade boat has sailed away.  It is likely Vancouver is going to move one of their goalies. Calgary will look to move Kipper and Fleury may be on the outs in Pittsburgh. Suddenly there may be a abundance of top goaltending available this off-season which will drive the price down.  The Sabres may have waited too long.

#17 ThirtyEight

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

View Postdeluca67, on 11 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Watching Vokoun starting for the Penguins, I am beginning to wonder if the Miller trade boat has sailed away.  It is likely Vancouver is going to move one of their goalies. Calgary will look to move Kipper and Fleury may be on the outs in Pittsburgh. Suddenly there may be a abundance of top goaltending available this off-season which will drive the price down.  The Sabres may have waited too long.

Luongo's contract is awful - that seriously limits who can/will take him
Fleury is a proven playoff failure (5/7 seasons below .900)
Kipper is retiring at the end of the season - he never had any intention of playing this last year apparently
Miller has a nice contract, is younger than Luongo, plays better in the playoffs and is not retiring

#18 Peppy22

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

After listening to those interviews from the beginning of march or april until today, it sounds to me as if Miller wants to stay, while Vanek wants out.

#19 dudacek

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostPeppy22, on 11 May 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

After listening to those interviews from the beginning of march or april until today, it sounds to me as if Miller wants to stay, while Vanek wants out.

Whereas the Sabres priorities are probably reversed. Drury and Briere all over again?

View PostThirtyEight, on 11 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Luongo's contract is awful - that seriously limits who can/will take him
Fleury is a proven playoff failure (5/7 seasons below .900)
Kipper is retiring at the end of the season - he never had any intention of playing this last year apparently
Miller has a nice contract, is younger than Luongo, plays better in the playoffs and is not retiring

Miller clearly is the most attractive of the four. But they can and will be used to drive the price down.


Darcy's next two months will be very sticky.

Edited by dudacek, 11 May 2013 - 07:40 PM.


#20 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:43 AM

View Postdeluca67, on 11 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Watching Vokoun starting for the Penguins, I am beginning to wonder if the Miller trade boat has sailed away.  It is likely Vancouver is going to move one of their goalies. Calgary will look to move Kipper and Fleury may be on the outs in Pittsburgh. Suddenly there may be a abundance of top goaltending available this off-season which will drive the price down.  The Sabres may have waited too long.

I see it as just the opoosite. I think Miller is becoming more valuable because of his contract. Kiprusoff is getting older, Bryz has a bad contract as does Luongo. Fleury is just hiighly overrated. Miller is still relatively young without a ton of years left.

View PostThirtyEight, on 11 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Luongo's contract is awful - that seriously limits who can/will take him
Fleury is a proven playoff failure (5/7 seasons below .900)
Kipper is retiring at the end of the season - he never had any intention of playing this last year apparently
Miller has a nice contract, is younger than Luongo, plays better in the playoffs and is not retiring

Apparently I didn't far enough down the thread. Ya beat me to it. Nice post. ;)

#21 Andrew Amerk

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:20 AM

Not too long ago, the team was trying to create an atmosphere that would influence top players to want to play for Buffalo.

Suddenly, the team is working on a model that will influence the top players to leave?

Makes sense.

#22 ThirtyEight

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:08 AM

View Postdudacek, on 11 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Miller clearly is the most attractive of the four. But they can and will be used to drive the price down.
Darcy's next two months will be very sticky.

I'm not so sure they can be used to drive the price down. Most teams cannot afford/do not need Luongo. Kipper is retiring so is basically another Thomas - i.e. he will be traded for his contract and nothing more.

The biggest issue would be Luongo being bought out - hence why it is important to trade Miller at the deadline (if we are going to trade him)

My list of potential goalie buyers:
1) Edmonton
2) New Jersey
3) New York Islanders
4) Tampa
5) Minnesota
6) Colorado
7) Winnipeg

#23 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostThirtyEight, on 12 May 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

I'm not so sure they can be used to drive the price down. Most teams cannot afford/do not need Luongo. Kipper is retiring so is basically another Thomas - i.e. he will be traded for his contract and nothing more.

The biggest issue would be Luongo being bought out - hence why it is important to trade Miller at the deadline (if we are going to trade him)

My list of potential goalie buyers:
1) Edmonton
2) New Jersey
3) New York Islanders
4) Tampa
5) Minnesota
6) Colorado
7) Winnipeg

I would add Phliladelphia to your list while removing Tampa (who already has Bishop, Lindback, and 2012 1st round pick Vasilevski) and Winnipeg with Pavelec.

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 12 May 2013 - 06:08 AM.


#24 DeLuca1967

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostThirtyEight, on 12 May 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

I'm not so sure they can be used to drive the price down. Most teams cannot afford/do not need Luongo. Kipper is retiring so is basically another Thomas - i.e. he will be traded for his contract and nothing more.

The biggest issue would be Luongo being bought out - hence why it is important to trade Miller at the deadline (if we are going to trade him)

My list of potential goalie buyers:
1) Edmonton
2) New Jersey
3) New York Islanders
4) Tampa
5) Minnesota
6) Colorado
7) Winnipeg
The Canucks might get a bigger return by trading Schneider because of Luongo's contract.

How about this for a long shot scenario. The Canucks dump Luongo, then they trade Schneider and the #25 pick to the Sabres in a deal involving Miller.

#25 Jsixspd

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 10 May 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I love the Freudian slip to feminine.......maybe we should have used that over the years.

haha - "Sabrea" -  guess that's what we get when our GM has a girl's name.

#26 LabattBlue

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

View PostThirtyEight, on 12 May 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

I'm not so sure they can be used to drive the price down. Most teams cannot afford/do not need Luongo. Kipper is retiring so is basically another Thomas - i.e. he will be traded for his contract and nothing more.

The biggest issue would be Luongo being bought out - hence why it is important to trade Miller at the deadline (if we are going to trade him)

My list of potential goalie buyers:
1) Edmonton
2) New Jersey
3) New York Islanders
4) Tampa
5) Minnesota
6) Colorado
7) Winnipeg
Ask yourself how many of these teams would be on Miller's "approved list"(I am assuming he has a limited move clause in his contract).

Edited by LabattBlue, 12 May 2013 - 09:39 AM.


#27 PASabreFan

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostJsixspd, on 12 May 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

haha - "Sabrea" -  guess that's what we get when our GM has a girl's name.

Sabrea, get away from that street! Don't make me break my foot off in your ass!

View PostLabattBlue, on 12 May 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Ask yourself how many of these teams would be on Miller's "approved list"(I am assuming he has a limited move clause in his contract).

It's a list of teams he won't agree to go to. Slight difference.

Has anybody mentioned the wild card of this being an Olympic year? Teams can expect to see an elite Miller, maybe just for half a season, but still... (And Darcy admitted that the Sabres benefited from this phenomenon in 2010.)

#28 LabattBlue

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 12 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Sabrea, get away from that street! Don't make me break my foot off in your ass!



It's a list of teams he won't agree to go to. Slight difference.

Has anybody mentioned the wild card of this being an Olympic year? Teams can expect to see an elite Miller, maybe just for half a season, but still... (And Darcy admitted that the Sabres benefited from this phenomenon in 2010.)
That's what I meant.  I would bet the majority of those teams woudl be on Miller's "you've got to be kidding me" list.

#29 Grumpy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostLabattBlue, on 12 May 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:


That's what I meant.  I would bet the majority of those teams woudl be on Miller's "you've got to be kidding me" list.

The list means nothing if there is no commitment to a new contract. He can go to any of these teams for a year and move on in free agency.  None of them can be any worse than the debacle being perpetrated on us as Sabre fans.  Buffalo has to be very  high on any free agent's list with a partial no trade clause as a "you've got to be kidding me" team.

Edited by Grumpy, 12 May 2013 - 12:36 PM.


#30 CallawaySabres

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:09 PM

If the Blackhawks lose to Detroit, I would think they could shoot to the top of the list of teams to contact for Miller......

#31 LGR4GM

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:50 PM

View PostCallawaySabres, on 21 May 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

If the Blackhawks lose to Detroit, I would think they could shoot to the top of the list of teams to contact for Miller......
Valid point. Chicago's major concern next year involves cap space.  With 21 players signed they are at 62.6mil in committed salary leaving 2mil in cap space.  Something to keep in mind if we were to trade 6.25mil Ryan Miller.

#32 Kristian

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostAndrew Amerk, on 12 May 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Not too long ago, the team was trying to create an atmosphere that would influence top players to want to play for Buffalo.

Suddenly, the team is working on a model that will influence the top players to leave?

Makes sense.

Comes much more natural to them, what can I say? :wallbash:

#33 Tondas

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:11 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 21 May 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Valid point. Chicago's major concern next year involves cap space.  With 21 players signed they are at 62.6mil in committed salary leaving 2mil in cap space.  Something to keep in mind if we were to trade 6.25mil Ryan Miller.
Pretty sure any deal involving Miller or Vanek will include us holding back some of their salaries.  We'll be flush with cap space and TP is loaded.  We can get good return this way and be better set for 14-15.

#34 PASabreFan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostTondas, on 21 May 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Pretty sure any deal involving Miller or Vanek will include us holding back some of their salaries.  We'll be flush with cap space and TP is loaded.  We can get good return this way and be better set for 14-15.

Flush with cap space. Concerned about the financial viability of the franchise. Growing revenues to qualify for revenue-sharing. Record ticket price increases. Who would have believed it on February 22, 2011?

There's your cue, Aud.

#35 Spndnchz

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 21 May 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Flush with cap space. Concerned about the financial viability of the franchise. Growing revenues to qualify for revenue-sharing. Record ticket price increases. Who would have believed it on February 22, 2011?

There's your cue, Aud.

It's 'only' 4%.  2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 where all 5%.

#36 X. Benedict

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:19 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 21 May 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

It's 'only' 4%.  2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 where all 5%.
Relatively, it is still a cheap ticket.

#37 That Aud Smell

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 21 May 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Flush with cap space. Concerned about the financial viability of the franchise. Growing revenues to qualify for revenue-sharing. Record ticket price increases. Who would have believed it on February 22, 2011?

There's your cue, Aud.

Dammit, I hate it when I can't pick up on a cue.

(Is this about the depressed value of natural gas? The trial of Terry Pegula?)

(Is this even directed to me?)

#38 PASabreFan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 21 May 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

It's 'only' 4%.  2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-12 where all 5%.

The "cost of attending a game index" increase was highest in the league last year, I believe.

#39 drnkirishone

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 21 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:



The "cost of attending a game index" increase was highest in the league last year, I believe.
that sounds like advanced stats to me

#40 LGR4GM

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostPASabreFan, on 21 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

The "cost of attending a game index" increase was highest in the league last year, I believe.
so the cost of attending a game LEAGUE WIDE was up and Terry Pegula is at fault? <_<  that makes sense


As for Vanek and Miller, my guess would be DR will have a pretty good idea of if he can sign them before the draft, obviously he has to wait until FA begins to announce a deal but I think he will know prior.

Edited by LGR4GM, 22 May 2013 - 07:21 AM.