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2013 Trade Grade


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Poll: 2013 Trade Grade

Give the Sabres an overall grade on their trades this season.

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#1 JWell

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:39 PM

Grade the trades that the Sabres made this season...

#2 nfreeman

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:19 PM

I said "something lower" as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give DR credit for making good trades but not hold him accountable for unacceptably bad results.

Speak truth to power!

#3 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

What he said ^^

#4 qwksndmonster

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

I liked the trades. But what freeman said.

#5 DeLuca1967

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 07 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

I said "something lower" as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give DR credit for making good trades but not hold him accountable for unacceptably bad results.

Speak truth to power!
100% Agree.

There is a huge difference between winning a trade and building a true contender.

#6 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 07 April 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

I said "something lower" as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give DR credit for making good trades but not hold him accountable for unacceptably bad results.

Speak truth to power!

Topic: Grade these apples.

I grade apples an F as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give crappy apple pie credit for using good apples but not hold it accountable for being crappy apple pie.

Nonsense.  This thread's about apples, not crappy apple pie.  There's lot of threads about crappy apple pie.  And some people think the apple pie isn't even the worst part of the meal.

#7 Eleven

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

I'll grade the apples.  

I still think he did well on the Leo trade and not so well on the Regehr trade, and I would have preferred holding Pommer to trade over the summer for NHL-ready players, for a one-year rebuild rather than three.

C.

#8 PromoTheRobot

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

With Lindy gone all haters can do is blame Darcy even though he is doing a great job.

Yes, he's doing a great job. Making trades and drafting players is his job. Getting those players to play well is not his job.

PTR

#9 weave

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostPromoTheRobot, on 07 April 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

With Lindy gone all haters can do is blame Darcy even though he is doing a great job.

Yes, he's doing a great job. Making trades and drafting players is his job. Getting those players to play well is not his job.

PTR

!!!ROLSTONHATER!!!!

#10 DeLuca1967

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

View PostPromoTheRobot, on 07 April 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

With Lindy gone all haters can do is blame Darcy even though he is doing a great job.

Yes, he's doing a great job. Making trades and drafting players is his job. Getting those players to play well is not his job.

PTR
What a heaping pile of apple pie. It's Regier's job to put together a roster of players capable of winning a Stanley Cup. The current roster isn't even capable of making the playoffs. "Great Job" :doh:

#11 bunomatic

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

I gave him an A on the trades. He got good value especially the Pommer trade where many league wide are saying he got a kings ransom. Considered into my grade was the fact that he made moves at all so I factored that into my opinion. Sat on his hands all year while we floundered. Much like last year. Coulda,shoulda,woulda...

Edited by bunomatic, 07 April 2013 - 06:28 PM.


#12 BlueNGold

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 07 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Topic: Grade these apples.

I grade apples an F as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give crappy apple pie credit for using good apples but not hold it accountable for being crappy apple pie.

Nonsense.  This thread's about apples, not crappy apple pie.  There's lot of threads about crappy apple pie.  And some people think the apple pie isn't even the worst part of the meal.

Damn.   How do you like 'dem Apples??

#13 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

View Postdeluca67, on 07 April 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

What a heaping pile of apple pie. It's Regier's job to put together a roster of players capable of winning a Stanley Cup. The current roster isn't even capable of making the playoffs. "Great Job" :doh:

You forgot steaming.  It's right out of the cooker, so it's really steaming too.

#14 Eleven

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

View Postdeluca67, on 07 April 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

What a heaping pile of apple pie. It's Regier's job to put together a roster of players capable of winning a Stanley Cup. The current roster isn't even capable of making the playoffs. "Great Job" :doh:

And pointing it out doesn't make you a hater, either.  It's not like you are making things up to further an agenda.

BTW I appreciate that some people like the trades and the prospect of a longer-term rebuild.  It's just not my preference.

#15 shrader

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostEleven, on 07 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'll grade the apples.  

I still think he did well on the Leo trade and not so well on the Regehr trade, and I would have preferred holding Pommer to trade over the summer for NHL-ready players, for a one-year rebuild rather than three.

C.

So if Hackett and Larsson are NHL ready come October, is there any difference?

#16 Eleven

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

View Postshrader, on 07 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

So if Hackett and Larsson are NHL ready come October, is there any difference?

Definitely.  Especially with respect to Larsson.  If Larsson is a capable #2 NHL center by October, I will feel like Regier really did a nice job with that one.  I'm not that interested in or excited by Hackett.  I see him as a "throw in" for Rochester, and, because I feel that Pommer could have commanded a #2 center and similar picks during the summer, I don't have a problem with that.

EDIT:  In other words, I would revise the grade upwards.  Probably to a B+.

Edited by Eleven, 07 April 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#17 nfreeman

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 07 April 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Topic: Grade these apples.

I grade apples an F as a protest against all threads/posts that attempt to further the position that it is somehow OK to give crappy apple pie credit for using good apples but not hold it accountable for being crappy apple pie.

Nonsense.  This thread's about apples, not crappy apple pie.  There's lot of threads about crappy apple pie.  And some people think the apple pie isn't even the worst part of the meal.

The problem with your analogy is that both apples and apple pie are capable of providing sustenance.  For fans of a hockey team, the only thing that provides sustenance is a winning hockey team.  Winning a trade doesn't do a GD bit of good unless it furthers the goal of having a winning team.

The analogy would be more apt if you handed a terrible apple pie to a starving man and asked him to grade the plate it was served on.

#18 thesportsbuff

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

I give him an A for the trades. I wish we could have gotten a first for Regehr but I think the Murray trade kind of set the bar, and a lot of people might consider Murray the better player.

#19 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 07 April 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

_____________ doesn't do a GD bit of good unless it furthers the goal of having a winning team.

Fill in the blank with 98% of the other ###### we debate, but hey, we still have a forum.

#20 nfreeman

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 07 April 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Fill in the blank with 98% of the other ###### we debate, but hey, we still have a forum.

This is a fair point in the abstract, but we're not talking about the abstract.  Trades are one of a GM's core functions.  As such there is an inextricable relationship to the question of whether DR has done a good job as GM, especially in the context of all of the recent discussion here on that exact issue.

The Sabres are coming to a crossroads with DR after this season.  The biggest decision they make as a franchise will be whether to keep him.  That decision can't be made based on abstractions like whether DR won a trade.  There are a number of posters here who are so happy with the fantasy hockey aspect of the deadline that they've lost sight of what DR is really supposed to do -- which is deliver a winning team.

#21 wyldnwoody44

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:19 PM

a B overall

Mostly because I wanted staff + gone, the trades were decent, but he didn't do quite enough I don't believe. I there were trades out there we coulda had that he missed out on. Maybe over the summer he will make amends, if he has a job.

#22 qwksndmonster

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

View Postwyldnwoody44, on 07 April 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

a B overall

Mostly because I wanted staff + gone, the trades were decent, but he didn't do quite enough I don't believe. I there were trades out there we coulda had that he missed out on. Maybe over the summer he will make amends, if he has a job.
Maybe he was only allowed to sell the UFAs and got permission for the Pommer trade and already knows he's gone.

:ph34r:

#23 SabresBillsFan

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:50 AM

Here I will give you my takes. I think he did very well in trades dating back to the Hodgson trade. You can't blame Darcy for all those picks that didn't pan out some blame has to be put on the scouts and some on that player. What I do blame Darcy for is the contracts he handed out. No pass there. But I think the scouting staff might have learned something with all the bigger players they have been drafting. Me personally I'm a Brian Burke Fan and I would love to give this guy a shot at GM. Yes we all know about the Kessel deal and some high price contracts but he has got the Leafs to where they are today and getting no credit. I know the Sabres won't fire Darcy but we are stuck with him and if he can't right this ship soon you all know he will be canned. If I were him I would be studying junior hockey players hard the next couple of years because his job depends on it.

#24 dudacek

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:22 PM

Brian Burke is a blowhard self-promoter.
I want no part.

#25 bunomatic

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:39 PM

View PostSabresBillsFan, on 08 April 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Here I will give you my takes. I think he did very well in trades dating back to the Hodgson trade. You can't blame Darcy for all those picks that didn't pan out some blame has to be put on the scouts and some on that player. What I do blame Darcy for is the contracts he handed out. No pass there. But I think the scouting staff might have learned something with all the bigger players they have been drafting. Me personally I'm a Brian Burke Fan and I would love to give this guy a shot at GM. Yes we all know about the Kessel deal and some high price contracts but he has got the Leafs to where they are today and getting no credit. I know the Sabres won't fire Darcy but we are stuck with him and if he can't right this ship soon you all know he will be canned. If I were him I would be studying junior hockey players hard the next couple of years because his job depends on it.

  John Ferguson drafted many of those leafs. He gets no credit.

#26 SabresBillsFan

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

The thing with Brian Burke is he is an aggressive GM. If their is a guy he wants he will go after them hard. That's what this team needs is a guy that can pull those trades off. Say what u want but people can say the Kessel deal was crap and it was but he got most of the younger players back the following year in the Kaberle trade. JVR trade is working in Toronto's favor just like the Phaenuf trade. Yes he's had misses on players but at least he's aggressive to make those moves unlike Darcy.

#27 wjag

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:07 AM

A+

QFT
QED
TINALO

#28 carpandean

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:58 AM

To me, Darcy is that guy on Ebay (ok, most guys on Ebay), who puts up something for 50% more than it's worth.  When some sucker finally comes along and pays what he's asking, then he looks like a genius.  The problem is that he doesn't, then, hit enough to fix the problems on this team (or make a lot of money in the analogy.)  Take Roy, for example.  Ott was a very good return, but how many deals did he pass on over the two or so years before this offseason that still would have made the team better, but would have done so sooner?  Similarly, he got a first-round pick for Gaustad, which is great, but how many times has he passed on fair deals in similar situations before hitting on that one?  In the aggregate, does that one help us more?

As an analogy, imagine that I make a product for $10.  If I sell it for $15, then my demand will be 1,000 units.  However, I decide to sell it for $20.  Should I be praised for getting $20 each when I only sell 300 units?  No, I should be fired for missing out on the other $2000 (1000*5 - 300*10) that I could have gotten.

Additionally, how many GMs no longer bother talking seriously with Darcy because his price is always too high.  If I'm a GM, now, and Darcy agrees to a trade, I have to assume that the market will perceive that I lost it.

We've had players that have stayed here too long and holes that have gone unfilled for too long.  How many of those "too longs" stem from Darcy passing on fair deals that would have helped?

One last point: it is actually not good practice to judge (positively or negatively) a GM (or any manager) based on the outcome of one decision (trade, drafted player, etc.)*  It is, however, absolutely good practice to judge him based on the aggregate effect of his decisions.  He controls the draft, he chooses the coach, he decides who stays up and who goes down, etc, etc, etc.  So, when you look at the end  product and find that it sucks, then he needs to go.


* obviously, there are extreme exceptions.

Edited by carpandean, 09 April 2013 - 08:01 AM.


#29 Eleven

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:18 AM

View Postcarpandean, on 09 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

To me, Darcy is that guy on Ebay (ok, most guys on Ebay), who puts up something for 50% more than it's worth.  When some sucker finally comes along and pays what he's asking, then he looks like a genius.  The problem is that he doesn't, then, hit enough to fix the problems on this team (or make a lot of money in the analogy.)  Take Roy, for example.  Ott was a very good return, but how many deals did he pass on over the two or so years before this offseason that still would have made the team better, but would have done so sooner?  Similarly, he got a first-round pick for Gaustad, which is great, but how many times has he passed on fair deals in similar situations before hitting on that one?  In the aggregate, does that one help us more?

As an analogy, imagine that I make a product for $10.  If I sell it for $15, then my demand will be 1,000 units.  However, I decide to sell it for $20.  Should I be praised for getting $20 each when I only sell 300 units?  No, I should be fired for missing out on the other $2000 (1000*5 - 300*10) that I could have gotten.

Additionally, how many GMs no longer bother talking seriously with Darcy because his price is always too high. If I'm a GM, now, and Darcy agrees to a trade, I have to assume that the market will perceive that I lost it.

We've had players that have stayed here too long and holes that have gone unfilled for too long.  How many of those "too longs" stem from Darcy passing on fair deals that would have helped?

One last point: it is actually not good practice to judge (positively or negatively) a GM (or any manager) based on the outcome of one decision (trade, drafted player, etc.)*  It is, however, absolutely good practice to judge him based on the aggregate effect of his decisions.  He controls the draft, he chooses the coach, he decides who stays up and who goes down, etc, etc, etc.  So, when you look at the end  product and find that it sucks, then he needs to go.


* obviously, there are extreme exceptions.

Not that I want DR here for a moment longer, but I've always thought this was bs.

#30 ThirtyEight

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:21 AM

View Postcarpandean, on 09 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

To me, Darcy is that guy on Ebay (ok, most guys on Ebay), who puts up something for 50% more than it's worth.  When some sucker finally comes along and pays what he's asking, then he looks like a genius.  The problem is that he doesn't, then, hit enough to fix the problems on this team (or make a lot of money in the analogy.)  Take Roy, for example.  Ott was a very good return, but how many deals did he pass on over the two or so years before this offseason that still would have made the team better, but would have done so sooner?  Similarly, he got a first-round pick for Gaustad, which is great, but how many times has he passed on fair deals in similar situations before hitting on that one?  In the aggregate, does that one help us more?

As an analogy, imagine that I make a product for $10.  If I sell it for $15, then my demand will be 1,000 units.  However, I decide to sell it for $20.  Should I be praised for getting $20 each when I only sell 300 units?  No, I should be fired for missing out on the other $2000 (1000*5 - 300*10) that I could have gotten.

Additionally, how many GMs no longer bother talking seriously with Darcy because his price is always too high.  If I'm a GM, now, and Darcy agrees to a trade, I have to assume that the market will perceive that I lost it.

We've had players that have stayed here too long and holes that have gone unfilled for too long.  How many of those "too longs" stem from Darcy passing on fair deals that would have helped?

One last point: it is actually not good practice to judge (positively or negatively) a GM (or any manager) based on the outcome of one decision (trade, drafted player, etc.)*  It is, however, absolutely good practice to judge him based on the aggregate effect of his decisions.  He controls the draft, he chooses the coach, he decides who stays up and who goes down, etc, etc, etc.  So, when you look at the end  product and find that it sucks, then he needs to go.


* obviously, there are extreme exceptions.

I agree with all this. However, it is really hard to know what it is like behind closed doors. We have literally no idea of what the perception of DR is. Is he the yin to Feaster's yang? Maybe. Or maybe he is just a normal GM - not that many trades happen around the league, and DR must have made more in the last 2 years than most GMs

I also don't criticise DR for not 'fire selling' players for the sake of it - e.g. Stafford is more useful to us than a late 2nd rounder, who will probably never make the NHL, until we are cap strapped

Edited by ThirtyEight, 09 April 2013 - 08:22 AM.


#31 wjag

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostEleven, on 09 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Not that I want DR here for a moment longer, but I've always thought this was bs.

I don't know if it is BS, but it sure seems like supposition..  I would imagine many GMs are accused of setting a price to high. (speaking of supposition, pot meet kettle).

#32 Sabre Dance

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:44 AM

View Postcarpandean, on 09 April 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

To me, Darcy is that guy on Ebay (ok, most guys on Ebay), who puts up something for 50% more than it's worth.  When some sucker finally comes along and pays what he's asking, then he looks like a genius.  The problem is that he doesn't, then, hit enough to fix the problems on this team (or make a lot of money in the analogy.)  Take Roy, for example.  Ott was a very good return, but how many deals did he pass on over the two or so years before this offseason that still would have made the team better, but would have done so sooner?  Similarly, he got a first-round pick for Gaustad, which is great, but how many times has he passed on fair deals in similar situations before hitting on that one?  In the aggregate, does that one help us more?

As an analogy, imagine that I make a product for $10.  If I sell it for $15, then my demand will be 1,000 units.  However, I decide to sell it for $20.  Should I be praised for getting $20 each when I only sell 300 units?  No, I should be fired for missing out on the other $2000 (1000*5 - 300*10) that I could have gotten.

Additionally, how many GMs no longer bother talking seriously with Darcy because his price is always too high.  If I'm a GM, now, and Darcy agrees to a trade, I have to assume that the market will perceive that I lost it.

We've had players that have stayed here too long and holes that have gone unfilled for too long.  How many of those "too longs" stem from Darcy passing on fair deals that would have helped?

One last point: it is actually not good practice to judge (positively or negatively) a GM (or any manager) based on the outcome of one decision (trade, drafted player, etc.)*  It is, however, absolutely good practice to judge him based on the aggregate effect of his decisions.  He controls the draft, he chooses the coach, he decides who stays up and who goes down, etc, etc, etc.  So, when you look at the end  product and find that it sucks, then he needs to go.


* obviously, there are extreme exceptions.

This. You can't just look at individual trades and judge the job a GM does by saying he won (or lost) that trade.  The GM is just one role of many in a hockey club. All of the parts have to work in symmetry in order for the end result to be good. If you have a group of mediocre players save for one superstar, your team will still likely not do well.  Every player has their role, as does each coach, scout, GM and yes, owner.  Everyone has got to be on the same page, all pulling in the same direction. I think one of the reasons that recent Sabre teams have played so pooly is that they don't have a clear direction; an identity.  Are they a rough, physical team? (Philly, Boston)  An offensive juggernaut? (Pittsburgh) A tough defensive team? (Jersey)
That is perhaps the issue with Regier.  He is focusing too much on individual pieces and not enough on the team as a whole. If you have a blueprint in mind for what you want your team to be, then you can go get the pieces you need to make it so.
That being said, I think Regier gets a B- for these trades.  I think there were more deals out there to be had (or maybe better), but for fear of "losing" the trade, they weren't made.  The ones he made were OK; now lets see what is done before the draft and in the summer....

#33 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:16 AM

Brian Burke and Terry Pegula ...

To quote a friend of mine ... "they would get along like fire and water".

Just think about that for a bit.

#34 carpandean

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostEleven, on 09 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Not that I want DR here for a moment longer, but I've always thought this was bs.

View Postwjag, on 09 April 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I don't know if it is BS, but it sure seems like supposition..  I would imagine many GMs are accused of setting a price to high. (speaking of supposition, pot meet kettle).

True (about it being a supposition and possibly BS ... though, to be fair, I asked a question rather than stating it as a fact. ;) )

I have no problem with starting higher than fair and then negotiating down.  I just get the feeling that Darcy starts high and stays high, holding out to see if the other guy ever blinks.  Think about the Gaustad deal.  It wasn't until the very last minute that someone finally agreed to his inflated price.  Had they not blinked, he would have gotten nothing for the asset.  If I remember correctly, he basically said that's what he thought was happening (i.e., the clock was turning 3:00 and he was thinking, "I guess there's no takers.)  There's certainly a lot of value between what he got and what wouldn't have been worth taking.  It just made me wonder about players who haven't been moved in years past that probably should/could have been.

#35 Icehole

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

View PostJWell, on 07 April 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Grade the trades that the Sabres made this season...

It is that dreaded word Potential and Darcy's lack of pulling the trigger on Stafford for why I voted something lower.  Not going to go higher till I see results... "Show Me"

#36 X. Benedict

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostPromoTheRobot, on 07 April 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

With Lindy gone all haters can do is blame Darcy even though he is doing a great job.

Yes, he's doing a great job. Making trades and drafting players is his job. Getting those players to play well is not his job.

PTR

Hang on a second. You can get great players, hold and have great players, and still not have a coherent roster.

Try it at home.....take the Sabres roster and make

A) A scoring line
B) A second Scoring line
C) A checking line
D) An energy line

If you can fill this line-up and say that the  Sabres are matching Pittsburgh, Boston, Montreal, and (gulp) even Toronto...line for line...then you can say Darcy did a great job.

How is that not his job?



At best I can say, I think we are at least 2 years away from even filling these lines.

#37 TheMadKat

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostEleven, on 07 April 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Definitely.  Especially with respect to Larsson.  If Larsson is a capable #2 NHL center by October, I will feel like Regier really did a nice job with that one.  I'm not that interested in or excited by Hackett.  I see him as a "throw in" for Rochester, and, because I feel that Pommer could have commanded a #2 center and similar picks during the summer, I don't have a problem with that.

EDIT:  In other words, I would revise the grade upwards.  Probably to a B+.

I wouldnt overlook Hackett.  Darcy has had success with 'throw in' players.  Pardy & Sulzer to name a few recent examples.

#38 Grumpy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

I voted this is fun, but way too soon to tell.

Edited by Grumpy, 09 April 2013 - 09:04 PM.


#39 carpandean

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostTheMadKat, on 09 April 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I wouldnt overlook Hackett.  Darcy has had success with 'throw in' players.  Pardy & Sulzer to name a few recent examples.

If those two are the measuring stick for "success" with throw ins, then Darcy may turn Hackett into a reliable backup.  Those two are still only 5-8 defensemen, though Sulzer got a little bit of a lift because he'd played with Ehrhoff.  So, will Hackett backup Enroth or just replace him? :P

#40 Andrew Amerk

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

Ask again in 5 years, then we can revisit this.