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Ted Black refuses to answer this question


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#1 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:13 AM

Been asked at least six times on his WGR appearance going back to 2011. Credit to Howard, Jeremy et al. for being persistent. I suspect they know this is a key question.

"Hey, Ted, if Darcy has a deal, does he need Terry to approve it or can he just pull the trigger?"

Ted always answers by not answering. "We all work together and Darcy gets input from everyone and we all have a boss, and sure why wouldn't you run it by your boss." Fine, except the question is about APPROVAL.

Will Rick Dudley want to work someplace where the owner can thumbs up or thumbs down his moves? If this is an issue of not trusting Darcy, then why is Darcy still here? If it's an issue of Terry wanting to be de facto GM of an NHL team, then why will Rick Dudley, or any other good hockey man with a pair want to work here?

#2 weave

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:25 AM

I HOPE they've got Darcy on a leash as those replies suggest.   I'm not going to worry about whether they put every GM on a leash until I actually hear of them doing it.  I don't have the emotional budget to worry about something that hasn't happened yet.

#3 That Aud Smell

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:25 AM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Been asked at least six times on his WGR appearance going back to 2011. Credit to Howard, Jeremy et al. for being persistent. I suspect they know this is a key question.

"Hey, Ted, if Darcy has a deal, does he need Terry to approve it or can he just pull the trigger?"

Ted always answers by not answering. "We all work together and Darcy gets input from everyone and we all have a boss, and sure why wouldn't you run it by your boss." Fine, except the question is about APPROVAL.

Will Rick Dudley want to work someplace where the owner can thumbs up or thumbs down his moves? If this is an issue of not trusting Darcy, then why is Darcy still here? If it's an issue of Terry wanting to be de facto GM of an NHL team, then why will Rick Dudley, or any other good hockey man with a pair want to work here?

I've heard him handle that question several times. He's deliberately fuzzy on how this gets handled. Here is what Ted has said:

* Darcy keeps his superiors (I'm actually not clear on who Darcy's direct report is -- Ted? Terry?) in the loop in "real-time" (that is a term that Ted used the other day) on player moves he is contemplating or working on.
* Ted stays out of Darcy's "kitchen" when it comes to hockey-related matters. Ted has not similarly vouched for Terry's staying out of Darcy's kitchen.

All of that does, as you infer, leave open the distinct possibility that Terry may weigh in on a contemplated deal with thoughts, suggestions, approval, or disapproval. We have no way of knowing how active Terry is in that process, or how much he defers to Darcy's judgment. Also, I'm not sure how different that sort of dynamic is from other management-ownership situations in the league.

#4 BMoreSabres

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:45 AM

It is time for the rest of the management to go, point blank. Our roster keeps on getting worse and worse, and if Miller is retained, we'll spiral into the depths of obscurity fast. Ugh.

#5 Spndnchz

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:55 AM

View Postweave, on 29 March 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

I HOPE they've got Darcy on a leash as those replies suggest.   I'm not going to worry about whether they put every GM on a leash until I actually hear of them doing it.  I don't have the emotional budget to worry about something that hasn't happened yet.

This.

#6 bunomatic

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

I can see it now. Regier apologists will say Darcy was handcuffed by TP so any moves he made or didn't make were a direct result of ownership meddling therefore you can't blame Darcy for the state of the team. Now where have I heard this sad story before. Bah. What a load of crap. Darcy always gets an easy out.

#7 Potato

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:07 AM

View Postbunomatic, on 29 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I can see it now. Regier apologists will say Darcy was handcuffed by TP so any moves he made or didn't make were a direct result of ownership meddling therefore you can't blame Darcy for the state of the team. Now where have I heard this sad story before. Bah. What a load of crap. Darcy always gets an easy out.

Darcy is like teflon... nothing sticks to him!

#8 nfreeman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

The only reason not to jump off a bridge at the thought of DR running this trade deadline is TB's implication that others in the organization (hopefully Ken Sawyer, but at this point I'd be happy with Tom Sawyer) have to approve any trades.

#9 Claude_Verret

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

The only reason not to jump off a bridge at the thought of DR running this trade deadline is TB's implication that others in the organization (hopefully Ken Sawyer, but at this point I'd be happy with Tom Sawyer) have to approve any trades.

Always hopeful, yet discontent.  He knows changes aren't permanent.  But change is.

#10 nfreeman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostClaude_Verret, on 29 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Always hopeful, yet discontent.  He knows changes aren't permanent.  But change is.

Exit the warrior.

#11 Patty16

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:47 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

The only reason not to jump off a bridge at the thought of DR running this trade deadline is TB's implication that others in the organization (hopefully Ken Sawyer, but at this point I'd be happy with Tom Sawyer) have to approve any trades.

Perhaps, as owner and senior mgt, they retain veto power, pretty common for GMs to run trades by ownership.  Not sure why this is an issue on GR.

Do you think Calgary traded Iginla without ownership approval?

#12 dudacek

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:01 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Exit the warrior.

Please tell me you think Darcy is a warrior.
Also, are there any Darcy apologists left?

#13 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:04 AM

Hey look, it's PA with another thinly(?)-veiled Pegula sucks post. Who would've thought.

#14 Taro T

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostPatty16, on 29 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:



Perhaps, as owner and senior mgt, they retain veto power, pretty common for GMs to run trades by ownership.  Not sure why this is an issue on GR.

Do you think Calgary traded Iginla without ownership approval?
Agreed.  I don't see this as an issue. The owner has $MM's invested in the team; it's in upper management's best interest to make sure the GM is kept honest. Switching to a Bills draft analogy, you don't want your GM that doesn't really want to be there grabbing an Eric Flowers or 1 desperate to save his job grabbing an Aron Maybin.

Keeping an active interest is different than insisting Peca gets lowballed nor not signing a Drury deal for a few weeks.

#15 Patty16

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 29 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Hey look, it's PA with another thinly(?)-veiled Pegula sucks post. Who would've thought.

If Darcy needs approval, TP is meddling
If Darcy doesnt need approval, TP sucks for letting Darcy do it.  

oh yea and analytics.

#16 That Aud Smell

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

View PostClaude_Verret, on 29 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Always hopeful, yet discontent. He knows changes aren't permanent. But change is.

That song. Never. Gets. Old.

It just doesn't.

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 29 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Hey look, it's PA with another thinly(?)-veiled Pegula sucks post. Who would've thought.

He's a cynic and a skeptic, I'll grant you. But it's a valid point of inquiry. My question is whether and to what extent other GM's in the league behave much differently. I don't think they do. The question comes down to how much the owner meddles or defers. That's something we just don't know.

#17 Braedon

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

I just think it's a loaded question, or one that can be misconstrued multiple ways.  If he says "No," it suggests disenfranchisement or lack of unity in the front office.  If he answers "Yes," it suggests micromanagement ala Jerry Jones.  In the presence of an increasingly unpopular GM, it's probably appropriate to answer conservatively.

#18 buftex

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Been asked at least six times on his WGR appearance going back to 2011. Credit to Howard, Jeremy et al. for being persistent. I suspect they know this is a key question.

"Hey, Ted, if Darcy has a deal, does he need Terry to approve it or can he just pull the trigger?"

Ted always answers by not answering. "We all work together and Darcy gets input from everyone and we all have a boss, and sure why wouldn't you run it by your boss." Fine, except the question is about APPROVAL.

Will Rick Dudley want to work someplace where the owner can thumbs up or thumbs down his moves? If this is an issue of not trusting Darcy, then why is Darcy still here? If it's an issue of Terry wanting to be de facto GM of an NHL team, then why will Rick Dudley, or any other good hockey man with a pair want to work here?

Or, it could just be that Darcys' future beyond this season is in question (we hope) and the owner wants to know what he plans to do with the roster, before he does it.  At this point, in 2013, after what has transpired this season, I would definitely want Darcy answering to somebody. I am not down on Pegula (he is still relatively new) but I am fearful that he may be as attached to some of the players on this roster as Darcy seems to be.  At the very least, it will be interesting to see what kind of moves the team makes at the trade deadline, if any.  It may indicate Darcy's status.

#19 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

View Postbunomatic, on 29 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

I can see it now. Regier apologists will say Darcy was handcuffed by TP so any moves he made or didn't make were a direct result of ownership meddling therefore you can't blame Darcy for the state of the team. Now where have I heard this sad story before. Bah. What a load of crap. Darcy always gets an easy out.

No

View PostBraedon, on 29 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I just think it's a loaded question, or one that can be misconstrued multiple ways.  If he says "No," it suggests disenfranchisement or lack of unity in the front office.  If he answers "Yes," it suggests micromanagement ala Jerry Jones.  In the presence of an increasingly unpopular GM, it's probably appropriate to answer conservatively.

It's a lose-lose or a win-win, depending on which way you look at it.

#20 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Exit the warrior.

Yard.

View Postdudacek, on 29 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Please tell me you think Darcy is a warrior.

Swing and a miss.

Also, lulz for expecting complete transparency regarding the highest levels of a privately-owned business in a hyper-competitive industry.

#21 LTS

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostPatty16, on 29 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

If Darcy needs approval, TP is meddling
If Darcy doesnt need approval, TP sucks for letting Darcy do it.  

oh yea and analytics.

I disagree.  Having experience with something similar.

You come into a situation where you are responsible for a team (in this case management team).  This management team creates a product.  They've shown the ability to do a decent job at times and they've also shown areas where things have failed in the past.  There are questions about whether the failures were with the person in question or if there were other business factors at work that caused the problem.  You can't be certain because there's evidence it could be a little but of both.  Truthfully it's past history and only relevant for knowing that there WAS a problem and perhaps still WILL be a problem when under new leadership.

So, you set out to evaluate performance.  The person in question begins to show some signs of life.  You presume it's because they are no longer shackled by prior leadership.  However, you can still see spots where the person isn't quite living up to expectations.  Do you fire the person at that point or do you perhaps believe that they are capable of performing the job they might just need a little help?  If you style is to upset the apple cart at a moment's notice then perhaps you fire the person straight away.  If you aren't then you work with the person.  You become more involved in the process than you normally would because you want to help them understand what you believe is the direction the product should be going.

I lived this exact situation.  I contemplated firing people, the pain of bringing in new people with different ideas and the lag it creates in the product cycle.  All of it.  Terry has shown that he is a patient person and so I believe he's simply evaluating what he has.  From a simpler perspective, if it's my dollar that funds the organization I am going to have to make sure I have complete trust in someone to spend my money.  Just because I don't have complete trust doesn't mean I should fire the person.  Even new employees, no matter their history, have to earn a little bit before they get carte blanche.  While we've seen DR for a long time the current ownership has not.  It's clear they are fairly calculating about things as Ruff was fired this year despite statements saying he wasn't going anywhere.

I think it's ignorant to presume they don't know what they are doing.  Ted Black has consistently said one thing.  We each have responsibilities and as a courtesy we discuss things with each other.  It's a collaborative effort at times.  Black has said that he does not get into the hockey operations piece but I take that to mean that the day to day operations is not his thing.  Managing the players on the roster, the financials of the organization and other factors sit above that level at the organizational management level.

I think people listen to the media spin questions and prognosticate on the answers as though they really know what is going on.  It's clear the Sabres operate very much like the Patriots in that you'll know what they are doing when they do it and not much sooner than that.  There's something to be said for that.

#22 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:


The only reason not to jump off a bridge at the thought of DR running this trade deadline is TB's implication that others in the organization (hopefully Ken Sawyer, but at this point I'd be happy with Tom Sawyer) have to approve any trades.

Non-hockey guys approving trades makes you feel better? Lawyers, network executives, financial executives, accountants, and oil and gas men. Great.

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 29 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Hey look, it's PA with another thinly(?)-veiled Pegula sucks post. Who would've thought.

Interesting that that's how you took it. Maybe deep down you know he sucks.

It's been two years, so I think it's too early to make a declaration of suckitude. But he's well, well on the road to it. The results have certainly sucked so far.

View PostTaro T, on 29 March 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Agreed.  I don't see this as an issue. The owner has $MM's invested in the team; it's in upper management's best interest to make sure the GM is kept honest. Switching to a Bills draft analogy, you don't want your GM that doesn't really want to be there grabbing an Eric Flowers or 1 desperate to save his job grabbing an Aron Maybin.

Keeping an active interest is different than insisting Peca gets lowballed nor not signing a Drury deal for a few weeks.

Again, Ted started answering the question that way in 2011. You don't trust your GM then and he's still here now and in the interim you've missed the playoffs and are on the verge of missing again? Makes no sense. Will Darcy be here next season "on a short leash"? Terry's comment about Darcy, "I can work with him" carries more and more meaning to me.

View PostPatty16, on 29 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

If Darcy needs approval, TP is meddling
If Darcy doesnt need approval, TP sucks for letting Darcy do it.  

oh yea and analytics.

I would never say an owner sucked for letting his hockey man do the job.

I'd like to get some consensus here.

Yes or no, simply put, should Terry set the mission, hire good people, write the checks and get out of the way?

#23 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:38 PM

Believing that he is accountable for this information also assumes that Ted, as Team President, serves directly on the management line between the Owner and the General Manager/Hockey Department.  That could likely be the case, but I don't know if that's the case for sure.  If that's not the case, he could very well be stating the public relations version of "that ain't my ######in' business."

Or it could just be the public relations version of "that ain't your ######in' business."

All of this makes any sort of TP-controlling-DR hypothesis very flimsy- as posted previously, there's no evidence for this yet.

#24 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 29 March 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Believing that he is accountable for this information also assumes that Ted, as Team President, serves directly on the management line between the Owner and the General Manager/Hockey Department.  That could likely be the case, but I don't know if that's the case for sure.  If that's not the case, he could very well be stating the public relations version of "that ain't my ######in' business."

Or it could just be the public relations version of "that ain't your ######in' business."

All of this makes any sort of TP-controlling-DR hypothesis very flimsy- as posted previously, there's no evidence for this yet.

Day One. "I like gritty players." Maybe your GM doesn't. The issue doesn't get any more complicated than that.

Then you fold in one of the Tweetie birds letting it slip that her dad liked the cut of Ehrhoff's jib, then Ehrhoff becomes a Sabres. Circumstantial, yes.

They boast of a "flat management structure" where input from all corners is considered, where no one has a "monopoly" on hockey knowledge. Terry flies to meet players, he's in the deadline room, the draft room, he "camped out" at the arena last summer according to Ted. I mean, they're giving you the answer to this question. Some don't want to believe it, maybe because the idea of an oil and gas man/hockey dimwit having this much control scares people.

And then they can't make the playoffs under him, can't get on Iginla's trade-to list two years into Hockey Heaven... Terry's honeymoon is fading but still alive and well. I just don't think people want to admit it's amateur hour at the arena and that the answer is more Rick Dudley in Buffalo and a lot more Terry Pegula in Florida, which is where he promised to be, you know, "for his family."

Edited by PASabreFan, 29 March 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#25 LGR4GM

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Exit the warrior.


#26 nfreeman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:



Non-hockey guys approving trades makes you feel better? Lawyers, network executives, financial executives, accountants, and oil and gas men. Great.


Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years.   I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

#27 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:21 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Day One. "I like gritty players." Maybe your GM doesn't. The issue doesn't get any more complicated than that.

Then you fold in one of the Tweetie birds letting it slip that her dad liked the cut of Ehrhoff's jib, then Ehrhoff becomes a Sabres. Circumstantial, yes.

They boast of a "flat management structure" where input from all corners is considered, where no one has a "monopoly" on hockey knowledge. Terry flies to meet players, he's in the deadline room, the draft room, he "camped out" at the arena last summer according to Ted. I mean, they're giving you the answer to this question. Some don't want to believe it, maybe because the idea of an oil and gas man/hockey dimwit having this much control scares people.

And then they can't make the playoffs under him, can't get on Iginla's trade-to list two years into Hockey Heaven... Terry's honeymoon is fading but still alive and well. I just don't think people want to admit it's amateur hour at the arena and that the answer is more Rick Dudley in Buffalo and a lot more Terry Pegula in Florida, which is where he promised to be, you know, "for his family."

An interested owner neither predicates nor precludes a controlling owner.

#28 LGR4GM

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 29 March 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

An interested owner neither predicates nor precludes a controlling owner.
yea if I owned the Sabres I would be involved because ti would be fun to see how it all goes down, that doesn't mean I interfere.

#29 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostLGR4GM, on 29 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

yea if I owned the Sabres I would be involved because ti would be fun to see how it all goes down, that doesn't mean I interfere.

There's an old saying in the scientific world that you can't observe a process without changing it. Or something. In other words, Terry may, like you, just want to sniff around, but his very presence may be affecting things. But is it a positive or a negative affect? To use a rough analogy, if I manage a restaurant and my new owner has been in the restaurant business for decades, and has had successful restaurants, I would welcome him into the process and know there's a lot I can learn from the guy. If the new owner just won the lottery and always wanted to own a restaurant, but whose only experience was eating in restaurants, and is now in my kitchen asking me what these tongs are for... not so much.

#30 Jsixspd

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:02 PM

Well if they don't trust Regier and need to keep him on a tight leash then it is stupid to have him as GM.

#31 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:04 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years.   I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

#32 Spndnchz

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

#33 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 29 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

#34 Spndnchz

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 29 March 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh?  Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

#35 nfreeman

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

View PostGhost of Dwight Drane, on 29 March 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

I don't have enough info on Sawyer's hockey background to agree or disagree with PAFan's characterization of him (although I'll note that a number of league executives are and have been hockey guys).  I also don't disagree with GoDD's description.

I guess I'm just assuming that there is plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and I can't believe that given the current state of affairs, DR is going to be given carte blanche at the deadline without the oversight of an experienced hockey guy.  Whether that's Sawyer or some other kind of outside consultant, I can't say.

#36 PASabreFan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 29 March 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh?  Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

Benson was a retired accountant with no affiliation with the Pens, I don't think.

I think we need a good working definition of "hockey guy," friend.

Black left the Pens to work for a sports network. Sawyer was also retired, IIRC.

What bugs me is that you have $4 billion and want to win a Cup. You can start from scratch and do whatever you want. Go around the world and find the best. Two years in, Darcy is your GM and you haven't looked beyond the end of your nose to staff the rest of it. Terry knew Cliff from Cliff doing accounting work for East Resources. They both lived in the Pittsburgh area and Cliff (probably) knew of Ted. Ken hired Ted in Pittsburgh, so it was time to repay the favor. I find it all lacking. I don't think the state of the franchise is much of a surprise.

View PostSpndnchz, on 29 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

I'll look into it. Probably not many. Right off the top I can think of Mario. And Jimmy Devellano in Detroit. And those are two of the franchises you'd certainly like to emulate.

I'll also look at how many teams have assistant GMs.

Edited by PASabreFan, 29 March 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#37 R_dudly

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:29 PM

View Postnfreeman, on 29 March 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years.   I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

Well I will give you he can be grumpy but comeon people this is a discussion board, PA and GoDD raise some valid points good for some reasonable. Discussion. And lets add Stafford to TP's meddling list as I recall one of his daughters gushing over him the year before they signed him to this ridiculous contract

View PostSpndnchz, on 29 March 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh?  Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

Sorry been in Pgh for 20 years now. Yes they are the "outside Business consultants" that basically helped set up the fabulous business model that Mario has with the keys to city, Fox sports now Root sports and sweetheart deal he has in PGH.

The hockey guys were Patrick, Eddie Johnson, Andre Savard(yes our ex-sabre still there), Mario himself and his connections within the league,,,  Compare the hockey guys in Marios organization today to Buffalo, who is there really besides Darcy?

#38 Taro T

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:



Non-hockey guys approving trades makes you feel better? Lawyers, network executives, financial executives, accountants, and oil and gas men. Great.



Interesting that that's how you took it. Maybe deep down you know he sucks.

It's been two years, so I think it's too early to make a declaration of suckitude. But he's well, well on the road to it. The results have certainly sucked so far.



Again, Ted started answering the question that way in 2011. You don't trust your GM then and he's still here now and in the interim you've missed the playoffs and are on the verge of missing again? Makes no sense. Will Darcy be here next season "on a short leash"? Terry's comment about Darcy, "I can work with him" carries more and more meaning to me.



I would never say an owner sucked for letting his hockey man do the job.

I'd like to get some consensus here.

Yes or no, simply put, should Terry set the mission, hire good people, write the checks and get out of the way?

I don't believe there is any concrete answer he could give that wouldn't set off some kind of alarms.  I don't see his answer indicative of DR out @ the end of the year nor him having a job for life.

#39 Spndnchz

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostPASabreFan, on 29 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:



Benson was a retired accountant with no affiliation with the Pens, I don't think.

I think we need a good working definition of "hockey guy," friend.

Black left the Pens to work for a sports network. Sawyer was also retired, IIRC.

What bugs me is that you have $4 billion and want to win a Cup. You can start from scratch and do whatever you want. Go around the world and find the best. Two years in, Darcy is your GM and you haven't looked beyond the end of your nose to staff the rest of it. Terry knew Cliff from Cliff doing accounting work for East Resources. They both lived in the Pittsburgh area and Cliff (probably) knew of Ted. Ken hired Ted in Pittsburgh, so it was time to repay the favor. I find it all lacking. I don't think the state of the franchise is much of a surprise.



I'll look into it. Probably not many. Right off the top I can think of Mario. And Jimmy Devellano in Detroit. And those are two of the franchises you'd certainly like to emulate.

I'll also look at how many teams have assistant GMs.

They all have had affiliations with the Pens. Might wanna read the media guide.

Stay grumpy my friend.

#40 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 29 March 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

They all have had affiliations with the Pens. Might wanna read the media guide.

Stay grumpy my friend.

Should we read the media guide from 2011 for Cliff Benson.....or the most recent one.

History changes ya know........ ;)