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Playoffs or stop winnin' for MacKinnon?


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Poll: To lose or not to lose

This is a public poll. Other members will be able to see which options you chose

Would you be happier if:

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#1 dudacek

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:14 AM

Admit it, you enjoyed the past few games a lot.

So in the wake of three-game winning streak in the midst of what has been a painful season, what are your hopes for the final month?
Would you rather see the Sabres make a miraculous run to the post-season, or pack it in completely and finally get a shot at an elite prospect?

#2 weave

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

And a public poll no less.

Let the ridicule begin......

Edited by weave, 24 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.


#3 Eleven

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

I understand the logic of both positions.

I just can't root against the team.

#4 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

It's not really about the rest of the season, It's about the next 5 games. One draft pick is great, but we can do much more on April 3rd than we can in June.

#5 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:41 AM

I'm all-in on the tank because I think it's what's best for the team for the next ten years--an elite talent who can help immediately and a new GM. The treadmill of mediocrity can go F itself, I already have one team on it and I don't want a second.

#6 bob_sauve28

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:45 AM

Never, ever not try and give your absolute best to win

#7 Spndnchz

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

Need one more option:

Sabres go on a run and still miss the playoffs.

#8 26CornerBlitz

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:47 AM

I voted for tank. I think that's in the best interest for the long term.  Getting in and getting bounced in the first round would be the same old mediocrity.  Simply not acceptable and would represent the same tired ground hog day movie we've seen far too often.

Either way, I'll be watching.

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 24 March 2013 - 10:52 AM.


#9 Eleven

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostSpndnchz, on 24 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Need one more option:

Sabres go on a run and still miss the playoffs.

Does anyone actually want that?  I think dudacek is asking for what people would like & not what will happen.

Nevermind, I get it!  Subtle.

I think what you wrote is close to what will happen.

Edited by Eleven, 24 March 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#10 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostSpndnchz, on 24 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Need one more option:

Sabres go on a run and still miss the playoffs.

I'm rooting for them. Their attitude was great for 6 or 7 games, then they slacked off, but seem to be playing hard again. If they keep up the KISS defense and play physical, I can't not root for them.

Simple fact is they need to go 11-4-1 to make it in. They are really 4 or 6 points behind 8th when taking into account the Rangers. They need one of Toronto, NJ or NYR to play .500 in order to catch them. I guess Ottawa still can tank, but then again, Carolina, Washington or Philly all have the talent to go on a run as well.

I just want Darcy to trade with Tampa before they hire Ruff, or else NTC will be envoked by Miller.

#11 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

A team can be successful without getting the best picks. A team can be a failure while getting top picks every year. Anybody who cheers for their team to lose should just go follow another team. It sickened me to hear Koziol and Malacaro actually getting on board with it last night, being the teams official radio station. You're blowing an awful lot of games taking a risk on a guy who might not even pan out, then you're screwed. This team doesn't need to get blown up, it needs a couple of significant changes. That can be done without starting from scratch. I'm sick of going through this with the Bills every year, I sure as he'll don't want to do it with the Sabres.

#12 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

I am a fan of the team and I cannot bring myself to hope that they tank.

At any rate, as of now, it seems that they will not have a very reasonable shot at picking one of the big three in the coming draft.

Now, if they do end up messing it up and having a top three draft pick, that would be great, as I don't think that even DR could screw that up.

While, I don't think this roster could become this year's LA Kings, if they get into the big dance anything could happen.

#13 sabills

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

If I thought they'd make they playoffs I'd vote that way, since I dont...

#14 Eleven

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

Winning does make it easier to sign free agents, too.

#15 bunomatic

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

The very reason I hate to see this team lose is the reason I voted tank. A number one pick would set us up for years to come on the compete index whereas a run to the playoffs and out or a run and just miss does absolutely nothing for this team in the long run. We'll continue to have so so seasons and be just average. Don't like it. Its time to start building the foundation for success.

I should add that as a fan of this team nothing would make me happier this season than to shock the world and slide into the playoffs to win it all. That being said I just don't see it so if they were to tank I'm ok with that if the reward for being shite is a #1. Just so tired of being shite year in and year out.

Edited by bunomatic, 24 March 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#16 PASabreFan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

If I'm right brain, a fan, sitting in front of the TV, I want the playoffs. If I'm left brain, a poster, sitting in front of the computer, I want to tank. It's really a tough call. Happier is the key word. Who wouldn't be happy to be watch the Sabres in the playoffs, especially after they win Game 1 on the road. You know they're going to. If the question was "would it be better if" that would change my answer.

#17 weave

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostEleven, on 24 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Winning does make it easier to sign free agents, too.

We aren't seeing difference makers get to FA very much anymore, and the ones that do command $100M contracts.  I'm at a low point in terms of enthusiasm for free agency as an agent of change now.  I guess I don't really care if a big losing season means that FA's are less interested in Buffalo.

#18 716

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

I say strive for just missing the playoffs and a #13 draft pick.

#19 nfreeman

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

If the choice is as the OP stated -- ie make the playoffs vs a top 3 pick -- then to me it's a no-brainer.  It's a much harder choice when it's try to make the playoffs (and maybe fail) vs tank -- although I would still vote for try, especially when they are 2 pts out with 16 to go.

I will add that someone mentioned in the Habs GDT that those who disagree with this are not bad fans -- they just have a different opinion.  I completely agree with this and have not intended to imply otherwise (if that comment was directed at me).

#20 Claude_Verret

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

I'm rooting for them to be who they truly are. IMO they are a bad team deserving of a finish in the bottom 3 or 4 teams.

#21 Robviously

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:09 AM

Tanking would give the Sabres the best draft pick they've had in 25 years and give us the first change in management in 16 years. A late run *might* get the Sabres into the playoffs (to face Pittsburgh in all likelihood) and should ensure that no major changes are made to the roster or management. So if you like how things have gone the past few seasons, definitely hope for a late run.

#22 nfreeman

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

View Postweave, on 24 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:



We aren't seeing difference makers get to FA very much anymore, and the ones that do command $100M contracts.  I'm at a low point in terms of enthusiasm for free agency as an agent of change now.  I guess I don't really care if a big losing season means that FA's are less interested in Buffalo.

I think star players with NTCs (like Nash) are also relevant here.  Those guys generally aren't interested in joining teams that keep missing the playoffs.

#23 bunomatic

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostRobviously, on 24 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Tanking would give the Sabres the best draft pick they've had in 25 years and give us the first change in management in 16 years. A late run *might* get the Sabres into the playoffs (to face Pittsburgh in all likelihood) and should ensure that no major changes are made to the roster or management. So if you like how things have gone the past few seasons, definitely hope for a late run.

  This about sums up the way I would have liked to explain my position. Thanks.

I don't feel like a bad fan for hoping for long term success as opposed to short term success with no payoff.

Edited by bunomatic, 24 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.


#24 deluca67

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostEleven, on 24 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Winning does make it easier to sign free agents, too.
There has to be a certain level of consistent winning to lure quality free agents. If the Sabres make a run to 8th place I don't think it will effect the signing of free agents. When it comes to quality free agents like Ehrhoff, it's going to take a heavily front loaded contract.

I've already said I'd rather see the Sabres finish in the bottom three. Not just because of the players available at the top of the draft, the Sabres would be picking at the top of every round. Those picks would have increased value if they were used to acquire players via trade or even to move up in the draft.

#25 d4rksabre

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

View PostEleven, on 24 March 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I understand the logic of both positions.

I just can't root against the team.

How is rooting for the bottom out rooting against the team?

#26 wjag

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

I could never bring myself to vote for a tanking.  It aint natural.

#27 deluca67

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

View Postd4rksabre, on 24 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

How is rooting for the bottom out rooting against the team?
As a Sabres fan, at this very moment what would you rather have, a first round loss to the Rangers last season or Mikhail Grigorenko in the Sabres pipeline?

#28 LTS

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:35 AM

Here's my problem for anyone who wants to get a top pick...  there's no guarantees you are going to get better, next year, the following year, or 4 years later.  I just can't get behind the idea of going for a #1 pick because of that.  If you knew, absolutely knew, that the top pick was going to be an all-time great then sure, I might be behind it.  I'm looking at drafts from 2008-2012...

Oilers - Top Pick Last 3 Years - currently suck
Tampa - Top Pick in 08, 2nd pick in 09 - just fired their coach, sucking
Islanders - 1st in 09, 5th in 10, 5th in 11, 4th in 12 - not looking too good (less points than Buffalo right now)
Panthers - 3rd in 10, 3rd in 11 - sucking
Jackets - 4th in 10, 2nd in 12 - sucking
Avalanche - 3rd in 09, 2nd in 11 - sucking

There are teams who have managed to sneak into a top 5 pick over the past 5 years (Blues, Bruins, Devils, Canadiens) but they've had other pieces that were in place to turn it around quickly.  If the Sabres are that bad then what is a Top 5 pick going to do for them?  It's not a guarantee of improvement.

For those teams that I listed as sucking, if they weren't in the top 5 they were usually 6 or 7 or so.  They've had top picks and nothing comes from it.  This is why I cannot get behind the idea.  I understand the concept, but unless you are Pittsburgh who gets Fleury, Crosby, Staal, and Malkin over a few drafts you are most likely going to suck.  A team would have to flip some talent in order to improve greatly.  I keep waiting for Edmonton to do it.  Three #1 picks on the roster and some other higher picks and they are getting nowhere...

#29 Ghost of Dwight Drane

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:38 AM

View Postd4rksabre, on 24 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

How is rooting for the bottom out rooting against the team?

Let's ask 2008-20012 d4rksabre.......... ;) :P

#30 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:41 AM

View Postdeluca67, on 24 March 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

As a Sabres fan, at this very moment what would you rather have, a first round loss to the Rangers last season or Mikhail Grigorenko in the Sabres pipeline?

Nobody in the draft has had a chance to prove their worth to accurately answer that question.

View PostLTS, on 24 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Here's my problem for anyone who wants to get a top pick...  there's no guarantees you are going to get better, next year, the following year, or 4 years later.  I just can't get behind the idea of going for a #1 pick because of that.  If you knew, absolutely knew, that the top pick was going to be an all-time great then sure, I might be behind it.  I'm looking at drafts from 2008-2012...

Oilers - Top Pick Last 3 Years - currently suck
Tampa - Top Pick in 08, 2nd pick in 09 - just fired their coach, sucking
Islanders - 1st in 09, 5th in 10, 5th in 11, 4th in 12 - not looking too good (less points than Buffalo right now)
Panthers - 3rd in 10, 3rd in 11 - sucking
Jackets - 4th in 10, 2nd in 12 - sucking
Avalanche - 3rd in 09, 2nd in 11 - sucking

There are teams who have managed to sneak into a top 5 pick over the past 5 years (Blues, Bruins, Devils, Canadiens) but they've had other pieces that were in place to turn it around quickly.  If the Sabres are that bad then what is a Top 5 pick going to do for them?  It's not a guarantee of improvement.

For those teams that I listed as sucking, if they weren't in the top 5 they were usually 6 or 7 or so.  They've had top picks and nothing comes from it.  This is why I cannot get behind the idea.  I understand the concept, but unless you are Pittsburgh who gets Fleury, Crosby, Staal, and Malkin over a few drafts you are most likely going to suck.  A team would have to flip some talent in order to improve greatly.  I keep waiting for Edmonton to do it.  Three #1 picks on the roster and some other higher picks and they are getting nowhere...

FWIW, this was all part of the plan for the Panthers. Not to mention they have a crapload of injuries.

But, I digress.

#31 Claude_Verret

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

The top pick isn't the only part of the equation. A tanking likely also brings a fire sale of dead weight and hopefully a new GM. I've seen enough of this team the last three seasons to know that I  want real change. No more false hope and expectations.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times ???

#32 Numark

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

I understand the logic, but a poll asking if I want my team to win or not is laughable.

#33 Robviously

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostLTS, on 24 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Here's my problem for anyone who wants to get a top pick...  there's no guarantees you are going to get better, next year, the following year, or 4 years later.  I just can't get behind the idea of going for a #1 pick because of that.  If you knew, absolutely knew, that the top pick was going to be an all-time great then sure, I might be behind it.  I'm looking at drafts from 2008-2012...

Oilers - Top Pick Last 3 Years - currently suck
Tampa - Top Pick in 08, 2nd pick in 09 - just fired their coach, sucking
Islanders - 1st in 09, 5th in 10, 5th in 11, 4th in 12 - not looking too good (less points than Buffalo right now)
Panthers - 3rd in 10, 3rd in 11 - sucking
Jackets - 4th in 10, 2nd in 12 - sucking
Avalanche - 3rd in 09, 2nd in 11 - sucking
1. You can't use the results from the last three drafts as proof that high draft picks don't help because those players are still nowhere near their prime. This isn't the NFL where a top pick can turn your franchise around immediately.

2. Some of the players that were drafted in those places are spectacular. Yes, the Islanders are still pretty bad but Tavares is a legit NHL star who should be the centerpiece of their franchise for at least a decade. Colorado got Landeskog two years ago and he's already their captain. If you want someone to build around, your best chance is at the top of the draft.

Edited by Robviously, 24 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#34 LTS

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostJJFIVEOH, on 24 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Nobody in the draft has had a chance to prove their worth to accurately answer that question.



FWIW, this was all part of the plan for the Panthers. Not to mention they have a crapload of injuries.

But, I digress.

The Sabres had a lot of injuries last year.  I remember what we kept saying about that point.... The Panthers improved when they obtained Campbell, Kopecky, Versteeg, Fleischmann.  Still their top 5 in scoring right now are a -8, -7, -12, -18 (Campbell), and -5... that's scary.

#35 Peppy22

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostSpndnchz, on 24 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Need one more option:

Sabres go on a run and still miss the playoffs.

thats sadly what I expect to happen. And in 12 months from now, where at the same spot, while a great Philly team will add a fantastic franchise player and will be even better next year with a new coach.

Take the hit once, finish 28th, 29th, 30th. Draft a great franchise player and finally rebuild the team. It's a 48 game season, This is a glorious chance to finish last or at least somewhere in that area without throwing away 82 games.

oh and about other teams picking high, and still sucking. This years draft is so much better in the top 5 area than it was in the last couple of years.

Edited by Peppy22, 24 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.


#36 thesportsbuff

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:56 AM

I'll take the playoff push. Team doesn't need a rebuild.

#37 LTS

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostRobviously, on 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

1. You can use the results from the last three drafts as proof that high draft picks don't help because those players are still nowhere near their prime. This isn't the NFL where a top pick can turn your franchise around immediately.

2. Some of the players that were drafted in those places are spectacular. Yes, the Islanders are still pretty bad but Tavares is a legit NHL star who should be the centerpiece of their franchise for at least a decade. Colorado got Landeskog two years ago and he's already their captain. If you want someone to build around, your best chance is at the top of the draft.

2005 - Crosby, Ryan, Jack Johnson, Benoit Pouliot, Carey Price (Crosby clearly, Ryan, certainly, Johnson and Pouliot.. not so much, Price.. maybe)
2006 - Erik Johnson, Jordan Staal, Jonathan Toews, Nicklas Backstrom, Phil Kessel
2007 - Patrick Kane, James van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey, Karl Alzner (Sam Gagner, 6th)
2008 - Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Luke Schenn

Of those 20 players, 9 of them are players I would consider top talent (Crosby, Ryan, Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian)
Of those 20 players quite a few have been flipped to other teams (E. Johnson, J, Johnson, Staal, Kessel, Pouliot, JVR, Turris, Schenn)

Now, we could potentially discount Kane/Toews because I would consider that like Malkin,Crosby.  I just look over those top 5 picks and I can't say that it really helps.  Ryan is a legit star but he appears to be on the outside looking in in Anaheim.

If you want me to say that picking in the Top 5 improves your chances of landing top talent I will.  I agree with that.  But I just can't get behind wanting a team to lose to get there.  Most of the teams that succeeded did so because they had multiple top picks.  So, are we willing to sit here as fans and want the top pick this year and next year?  Can we sit through another season of sucking?

I think we want to say yes.  I think we want to say, if there's a plan then I am behind it.  But I think that when January of 2014 rolls around we'll be desperate for a team that shows something.

I think this team can improve without having to get the top picks.

#38 JJFIVEOH

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostLTS, on 24 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:



The Sabres had a lot of injuries last year.  I remember what we kept saying about that point.... The Panthers improved when they obtained Campbell, Kopecky, Versteeg, Fleischmann.  Still their top 5 in scoring right now are a -8, -7, -12, -18 (Campbell), and -5... that's scary.

Theodore
Weaver
Bergenheim
Jovanovski
Versteeg
Perros
Weiss

All of them out. All but Perros were key players last year. They have 9 players on the roster for tonight who have less than 50 games of experience. Last year's team wasn't the team of the future, most were fill ins while the draft picks made their transition. Eight first and second round picks in two years, most are just now getting into the lineup. Tallon knows what he's doing.

All I'm waiting on is the forum police to tell us to stick to the topic haha.

Edited by JJFIVEOH, 24 March 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#39 Robviously

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostLTS, on 24 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

2005 - Crosby, Ryan, Jack Johnson, Benoit Pouliot, Carey Price (Crosby clearly, Ryan, certainly, Johnson and Pouliot.. not so much, Price.. maybe)
2006 - Erik Johnson, Jordan Staal, Jonathan Toews, Nicklas Backstrom, Phil Kessel
2007 - Patrick Kane, James van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey, Karl Alzner (Sam Gagner, 6th)
2008 - Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Luke Schenn

Of those 20 players, 9 of them are players I would consider top talent (Crosby, Ryan, Staal, Toews, Backstrom, Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Bogosian)
Of those 20 players quite a few have been flipped to other teams (E. Johnson, J, Johnson, Staal, Kessel, Pouliot, JVR, Turris, Schenn)

Now, we could potentially discount Kane/Toews because I would consider that like Malkin,Crosby.  I just look over those top 5 picks and I can't say that it really helps.  Ryan is a legit star but he appears to be on the outside looking in in Anaheim.

If you want me to say that picking in the Top 5 improves your chances of landing top talent I will.  I agree with that.  But I just can't get behind wanting a team to lose to get there.  Most of the teams that succeeded did so because they had multiple top picks.  So, are we willing to sit here as fans and want the top pick this year and next year?  Can we sit through another season of sucking?

I think we want to say yes.  I think we want to say, if there's a plan then I am behind it.  But I think that when January of 2014 rolls around we'll be desperate for a team that shows something.

I think this team can improve without having to get the top picks.
Improve into what? From a team that barely misses the playoffs to one that barely makes them?

Assume the Sabres are never in a position to draft a Tavares or Toews or Kane or Landeskog or Crosby -- what is the plan for making us a contender? The top free agents aren't interested in coming here and signing free agents is iffy at best anyway. Our chances of landing top talent later in the draft are fairly low. I'm not seeing how our current team becomes a contender without a new franchise player or two.

#40 Eleven

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postd4rksabre, on 24 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

How is rooting for the bottom out rooting against the team?


No no no, don't take it that way.

I mean, I cannot watch a Sabres game and root for the other team to win.  Can't do it.

Again, I completely understand the flip side of this coin.