63 replies to this topic

[freester]

I  do not feel he will ever develop into an elite defensemen.  He lacks toughness, leadership and shies away from contact.  I think his value will fall as more GM realize his failed potential.

[apuszczalowski]

freester, on 15 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I  do not feel he will ever develop into an elite defensemen.  He lacks toughness, leadership and shies away from contact.  I think his value will fall as more GM realize his failed potential.

He has value and there will be plenty of GMs/teams that will be all over a deal to get someone with his size and age thinking they can be the ones to turn him around.
Problem is that I doubt teams are going to wow the Sabres and offer much aside from draft picks and maybe some prospects (or a possible underachieving prospect of their own) for him

[ThirtyEight]

I agree, every Norris trophy winner of the past decade and shown toughness, leadership and puts anything that moves through the boards. That is absolutely what every elite defenseman does. The better the defenceman the more hospitalised the opponent

[Sabres Fan In NS]

ThirtyEight, on 15 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I agree, every Norris trophy winner of the past decade and shown toughness, leadership and puts anything that moves through the boards. That is absolutely what every elite defenseman does. The better the defenceman the more hospitalised the opponent

Um, Erik Karlsson?


EDIT TO ADD:

Lidstrom?

Edited by Sabres Fan In NS, 15 March 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[IKnowPhysics]

IF we had to do this, and I don't think we have to do this, I'm confident that Regier could do what Colorado couldn't: pull a top six forward and a top prospect (or mid-high or high 1st round pick).

And just for fun, because I'm feeling cheap, and I know somebody's going to do it anyways, I'll play the Chara card:

Chara tallied 29 points and a -61 in his four years (231 games) with the Islanders.
Myers tallied 112 points and a +11 in his four years (242 games so far) with the Sabres.

[nfreeman]

Sabres Fan In NS, on 15 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Um, Erik Karlsson?


EDIT TO ADD:

Lidstrom?

I had a similar reaction, but then my sarcasm detector beeped in.

Also:  there is NFW the Sabres are trading Myers this year.

Edited by nfreeman, 15 March 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[freester]

The Chara card is irrellevant.  The only thing he has in common with Chara is height.  I think Ennis is a more physical player.  I would not move Myers for picks, only for blue chip prospects or legitmite stars.

[Sabres Fan In NS]

nfreeman, on 15 March 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I had a similar reaction, but then my sarcasm detector beeped in.

Also:  there is NFW the Sabres are trading Myers this year.

So, I took the hook, line and sinker again, eh?

I'm usually better at detecting.  Must be time to replace the batteries in my detector ...

On the other hand, maybe our friend was serious?

[Who Else?]

Chara wasn't Chara until he switched teams.  The Islanders (clearly not the best judges of career potential) must not have seen what they needed to in him to trade him away.

I think the same may provide true for Myers.  In Buffalo, he may always be an underachiever, but somewhere else?  Who Knows.  I truly believe this of Stafford also.  If there is a decent enough return for these guys, let them go.  I'd like to see someone come in to fill the spot Stafford should have earned by now.

[Derrico]

Sabres Fan In NS, on 15 March 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Um, Erik Karlsson?


EDIT TO ADD:

Lidstrom?

Hhahahhaa, I thought he was serious until the last sentence. It's alright, it's Friday.

freester, on 15 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I  do not feel he will ever develop into an elite defensemen.  He lacks toughness, leadership and shies away from contact.  I think his value will fall as more GM realize his failed potential.

If you're trading him it had better be out of conference.  I don't know if he'll ever develop into an allstar but I don't want him in our division if he ever does ala Chara.

[ThirtyEight]

Who Else?, on 15 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Chara wasn't Chara until he switched teams.  The Islanders (clearly not the best judges of career potential) must not have seen what they needed to in him to trade him away.

I think the same may provide true for Myers.  In Buffalo, he may always be an underachiever, but somewhere else?  Who Knows.  I truly believe this of Stafford also.  If there is a decent enough return for these guys, let them go.  I'd like to see someone come in to fill the spot Stafford should have earned by now.

Same thing was true with Pronger. Maybe it is the switching teams, or maybe it was the player maturing and being expected to do too much too young - no way to really know. But i'd roll the dice on maturity (personally)

And yes i was being sarcastic my favourite player of all time is Lidstrom and I don't hold toughness to the same ethereal standard others do around here

[HopefulFuture]

Tyler Myers isn't going anywhere, this conversation is moot. He'll develop, how high? Only he himself knows, but he's a bargain at that cap hit for that length of time.

I don't know why so many people even consider this kid as movable given the problem isn't PMD men, it's stay at home, shut down types. We'll get a partner to pair with him that has the skills, that will elevate his skill set.

[billsrcursed]

freester, on 15 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

The Chara card is irrellevant.  The only thing he has in common with Chara is height.  I think Ennis is a more physical player.  I would not move Myers for picks, only for blue chip prospects or legitmite stars.

So you think he sucks, but think we can fool other NHL GM's into trading their stars for him?

[Spndnchz]

billsrcursed, on 15 March 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

So you think he sucks, but think we can fool other NHL GM's into trading their stars for him?

We're keeping his suckage a secret.

[dudacek]

We went all in on Myers with that contract. Too soon to fold now.
Besides, rebuilding teams like ours often look foolish trading their best young talent.

To answer your question, we'd get a lot; very few defencemen his age have his resume, none his skill set.
But it would take a special set of circumstances to make a deal - sort of a larger-scale Hodgson/Kassian scenario.

[Lanny]

Would it be at all comparable to St. Louis trading Johnson?

[Sabres Fan In NS]

Lanny, on 15 March 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Would it be at all comparable to St. Louis trading Johnson?

Maybe?

I think it is more comparable to Punch trading Lanny to Colorado in '79.

[ThirtyEight]

Lanny, on 15 March 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Would it be at all comparable to St. Louis trading Johnson?

I think it is quite comparable - they traded him in his third season, when he was 23. He is tall and a bit of a disappointment (mainly because he was a first overall pick though). Myers has ever so slightly better stats over the first 3 years.

I would be careful to make a big decision like Myers, based on this season. He probably came in quite out of shape, having just got back from an ankle injury. And this season has been a bit unusual all round.

EJ, McClement (solid defensive 3rd line C) and a first was traded for Stewart (23yo who had put up 60+ points before), Shattenkirk (22yo rookie playing very very well) and a second

It is worth noting the Blues had drafted Peterangelo by that point

I think it would be similar to this kind of trade:

Myers, Porter, 3rd for Voynov, Bernier, 1st

Edited by ThirtyEight, 15 March 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[freester]

I know Darcy doesn't have the balls to trade Myers, but a new GM might.  I would like to keep Pominville and Vanek long term and resign Hodgson and Ennis as well as add more elite talent.  Someone has to go in a trade for both value and contract reasons to get a decent return.  No one is giving us an elite player for Stafford or Leino.

[shrader]

ThirtyEight, on 15 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I think it is quite comparable - they traded him in his third season, when he was 23. He is tall and a bit of a disappointment (mainly because he was a first overall pick though). Myers has ever so slightly better stats over the first 3 years.

I would be careful to make a big decision like Myers, based on this season. He probably came in quite out of shape, having just got back from an ankle injury. And this season has been a bit unusual all round.

EJ, McClement (solid defensive 3rd line C) and a first was traded for Stewart (23yo who had put up 60+ points before), Shattenkirk (22yo rookie playing very very well) and a second

It is worth noting the Blues had drafted Peterangelo by that point

And it looked like St. Louis got a huge return in that deal, but then Stewart hasn't really progressed since then.  If we did see a similar return to that one though, the team would have to consider it very seriously.

[TrueBluePhD]

The upside of Myers hitting his ceiling is far greater than selling low on him (I think we could get a decent package, but make no mistake, we'd be selling low right now).

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

TrueBluePhD, on 15 March 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

The upside of Myers hitting his ceiling is far greater than selling low on him (I think we could get a decent package, but make no mistake, we'd be selling low right now).

He hits his ceiling daily. He's too slow to duck in time.......

[TrueBluePhD]

Ghost of Dwight Drane, on 15 March 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

He hits his ceiling daily. He's too slow to duck in time.......

Insert "that's the only contact he makes" joke here.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

TrueBluePhD, on 15 March 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Insert "that's the only contact he makes" joke here.

I hear his favorite show on HBO is Real Time with Bill Maher.....

I guess that makes him a.............. Maher Fan........


That one is for the Clipper!

[Claude_Verret]

Ghost of Dwight Drane, on 15 March 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I hear his favorite show on HBO is Real Time with Bill Maher.....

I guess that makes him a.............. Maher Fan........


That one is for the Clipper!

His recent play is also error prone and lazy...

Maher fan sin drone

[cnytom]

First, let me say I am not a Meyers fan, but  it is because he doesn't play to what he can play to. There can only be two reasons, one; everybody was wrong about his ability and that first year was a fluke. or two; He isn't being coached correctly.  Based on our total inability back there defense wise, I would go with coaching. So now is he too ruined or is there someone who could straighten him out? Some one like Jim Schoenfeld, but I don't know if he is even available or interested, but I bet the defense would shape up under him or be so darn tired they couldn't play. But if we can't find a coach for him, then lets get something for him that is decent.

[nobody]

I think some team would still give up a 2nd round pick for Myers.

[dudacek]

Any GM not willing to give up a second-round pick for Myers should be fired.

[TrueBluePhD]

cnytom, on 15 March 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

First, let me say I am not a Meyers fan, but  it is because he doesn't play to what he can play to. There can only be two reasons, one; everybody was wrong about his ability and that first year was a fluke. or two; He isn't being coached correctly.  Based on our total inability back there defense wise, I would go with coaching. So now is he too ruined or is there someone who could straighten him out? Some one like Jim Schoenfeld, but I don't know if he is even available or interested, but I bet the defense would shape up under him or be so darn tired they couldn't play. But if we can't find a coach for him, then lets get something for him that is decent.

I propose a third: player development doesn't always follow a linear path.  In fact, I'd suggest it normally doesn't.

[Grumpy]

Hire a guy who has a history of coaching defencemen at the NHL level, not former Sabres players  with no experience in coaching before their retirement from playing.  Oh, and make him a guy who has coached guys to play the man, and not stick check.  You know, fundamentals.............

I wouldn't quit on him yet.

Soupy sucked at this age, and was up and down between the NHL/AHL before he made it.  Traditionally, d takes much longer to develop.  The kid was thrown in pretty early on a team whose veteran defenceman refuse to play the man instead of the puck.  Who's his role model? Regehr is the exception, but hasn't been here from day one for and is on the downside of his career.  (Another DR attempt to spend on what he doesn't draft.) LR was more a forward than a defenceman, mainly because he wasn't very good  on the back end.  Patrick was a soft offensive defenceman and a king of the poke check.   Who's been teaching this kid?  The longer he has been away from his junior coaches, the more he has regressed.

Edited by Grumpy, 16 March 2013 - 12:45 AM.

[mrm33064]

dudacek, on 15 March 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Any GM not willing to give up a second-round pick for Myers should be fired.

Agreed.  No chance Myers is dealt away for that.   A team that might see itself in rebuilding mode isn't going to get very far casting away guys like Myers.

Myers is probably the closest thing we have to untouchable insofar as it's unlikely we'd ever be offered enough to deal him.

[d4rksabre]

Grumpy, on 16 March 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Hire a guy who has a history of coaching defencemen at the NHL level, not former Sabres players  with no experience in coaching before their retirement from playing.  Oh, and make him a guy who has coached guys to play the man, and not stick check.  You know, fundamentals.............

I wouldn't quit on him yet.

Soupy sucked at this age, and was up and down between the NHL/AHL before he made it.  Traditionally, d takes much longer to develop.  The kid was thrown in pretty early on a team whose veteran defenceman refuse to play the man instead of the puck.  Who's his role model? Regehr is the exception, but hasn't been here from day one for and is on the downside of his career.  (Another DR attempt to spend on what he doesn't draft.) LR was more a forward than a defenceman, mainly because he wasn't very good  on the back end.  Patrick was a soft offensive defenceman and a king of the poke check.   Who's been teaching this kid?  The longer he has been away from his junior coaches, the more he has regressed.

One of the best posts you've ever made. Well said and i agree 100%. We can only hope the off-season brings a new coaching staff because the current one, regardless of HC, is just brutal.

[PASabreFan]

IKnowPhysics, on 15 March 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

IF we had to do this, and I don't think we have to do this, I'm confident that Regier could do what Colorado couldn't: pull a top six forward and a top prospect (or mid-high or high 1st round pick).

And just for fun, because I'm feeling cheap, and I know somebody's going to do it anyways, I'll play the Chara card:

Chara tallied 29 points and a -61 in his four years (231 games) with the Islanders.
Myers tallied 112 points and a +11 in his four years (242 games so far) with the Sabres.

Those comparisons are always fun. Enroth's save percentage after 46 games is higher than Miller's was at the same point in his career.

[deluca67]

I doubt Regier would even consider trading Myers. On the other hand, I have no doubt trading Myers would be a top priority for any new GM.

[thewookie1]

DeLuca67, on 17 March 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I doubt Regier would even consider trading Myers. On the other hand, I have no doubt trading Myers would be a top priority for any new GM.

I would of found a new D coach and traded for Tallinder by now. Myers and Ehrhoff are the future of the Sabres D, Ehrhoff needs to be able to play with a defensive D-man so he doesn't look at a mental crossroads at the point between pinching and falling back.

[HopefulFuture]

DeLuca67, on 17 March 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I doubt Regier would even consider trading Myers. On the other hand, I have no doubt trading Myers would be a top priority for any new GM.

I seriously doubt that. Any GM, new or other wise, is going to be looking for building blocks, obviously Myers would be one of those.
I still chuckle at those who believe he needs to be moved, that's just not the case here IMO.
The kid is much more valuable to the Sabres then to any other organization, if he's so bad we have to move as some suggest, why would you move him when his value is low due to his performance? That makes no sense.
And for those saying he needs to go just because he sucks, that's also not the case, the kid is going through growing pains and as others have pointed out, it takes a bit to develop an NHL defensemen.

I look to his partner in his rookie season, Tallinder. Many discount the success Myers had with him, I don't. It shows something, another mistake by Regier. It wasn't Myers ability that shot him up the charts, it was Tallinder's presence to as a veteran to cover for Myers while he shot into the offensive zone that made the difference there, he hasn't had a partner like that since Tallinder left.

The bottom line from my point of view is this, Myers hasn't regressed all that much, Buffalo's defensive corps has really gotten that bad around him though.

[TrueBluePhD]

HopefulFuture, on 17 March 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

I look to his partner in his rookie season, Tallinder. Many discount the success Myers had with him, I don't. It shows something, another mistake by Regier. It wasn't Myers ability that shot him up the charts, it was Tallinder's presence to as a veteran to cover for Myers while he shot into the offensive zone that made the difference there, he hasn't had a partner like that since Tallinder left.

This is a key point IMO. While we'd all love Myers to be am offensive star while shutting down top competition, he's not that guy yet. His great rookie season was partially due to being able to play on offensive instinct without much concern on the defensive end because Tallinder could cover for him. I think the Sabres are making a huge mistake by telling Myers to only care about defense. I'd do the opposite and pair him with our best and most mobile defender, Sekera.

[HopefulFuture]

TrueBluePhD, on 17 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

This is a key point IMO. While we'd all love Myers to be am offensive star while shutting down top competition, he's not that guy yet. His great rookie season was partially due to being able to play on offensive instinct without much concern on the defensive end because Tallinder could cover for him. I think the Sabres are making a huge mistake by telling Myers to only care about defense. I'd do the opposite and pair him with our best and most mobile defender, Sekera.

Yea, Sekera immediately came to mind as well.

[716]

I'd love to see John Tavares come back with Myers and a package (or perhaps Miller or Pominville) in exchange.

[IKnowPhysics]

TrueBluePhD, on 17 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I think the Sabres are making a huge mistake by telling Myers to only care about defense. I'd do the opposite and pair him with our best and most mobile defender, Sekera.

Myers does play better with a solid stay at home defensemen, which is why we often see him with Regehr.

But I don't think the Sabres are asking him to simplify his game and play defense-only.  I get the impression he's being asked to do everything: play positionally well in his own end, step up in the offensive play, carry the puck on the rush, play more physically, play on the powerplay AND the penalty kill.  Then complicate that by whatever systems changes came with the coaching change.  Maybe that's not unfair because they're paying him like he should be able to do everything.  But I know from playing defense- if you try to do too much, you end up playing poorly.

I'm not sure what the cause of the change has been, if any, but Myers was -7 in Ruff's 15 games and is +1 in Rolston's 11 games.  Maybe the healthy scratch?