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So. What is the problem?


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#1 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:29 PM

View Post.@Spndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Show me one time this year the team has backed off sticking up for their teammates.

Yup.  This year's problem isn't toughness, it's talent/execution.

#2 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:31 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup.  This year's problem isn't toughness, it's talent/execution.

I've been saying it since summertime.  Building a team to get tough with the Bruins is not a recipe for success.

#3 Robviously

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostEleven, on 20 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

That's why Zetterberg, Crosby, LeCavalier, and Sedin are such horrible captains.  They can't fight, they don't fight, and their teams must suck, right?
Errr, you know I'm on the completely opposite side of that argument right?  Pominville isn't my favorite player or captain of all time, but I've definitely defended what he's done since getting the "C."  There's more than one way to be a good (or great) captain.

#4 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:38 PM

View PostRobviously, on 20 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Errr, you know I'm on the completely opposite side of that argument right?  Pominville isn't my favorite player or captain of all time, but I've definitely defended what he's done since getting the "C."  There's more than one way to be a good (or great) captain.

I do know.  I was adding to your point and not arguing with it.

#5 Grumpy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup.  This year's problem isn't toughness, it's talent/execution.


Yes, but I'd add compete to your two.

#6 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostGrumpy, on 20 February 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, but I'd add compete to your two.

See, for the most part I don't think it is compete/effort (sure there's been times, but not as a whole IMO).  A lot of times players and/or teams look lazy or complacent simply because they aren't very good.

#7 Grumpy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

See, for the most part I don't think it is compete/effort (sure there's been times, but not as a whole IMO).  A lot of times players and/or teams look lazy or complacent simply because they aren't very good.

Okay, probably wrong word.  Their inablity win battles for the puck down low in their own zone probably falls under talent. (i.e. the talent to win a one on one battle)

#8 weave

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostGrumpy, on 20 February 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, but I'd add compete to your two.

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

See, for the most part I don't think it is compete/effort (sure there's been times, but not as a whole IMO).  A lot of times players and/or teams look lazy or complacent simply because they aren't very good.

What I remember alot of during the last several seasons was a distinct lack of compete.  Lots of short-arming passes that weren't right on tape or delivered into traffic, players pulling up along the boards, poor effort at going after pucks.  I've only seen a few games this season but I can't say I've noticed much of the short-arming and pulling up.  certainly not like it was during the Connolly, Roy days.  even Stafford seems to be somewhat cured of those habits.  I think the effort for the most part has been acceptable (again, from the few games I've seen).  I just feel the coach and the players aren't at the level of their opponents on most nights.

Edited by weave, 20 February 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#9 weave

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

Hey Blue, I bet you didn't realize you started a thread.   :P

#10 Spndnchz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM

View Postweave, on 20 February 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Hey Blue, I bet you didn't realize you started a thread.   :P

He spoke to me in tongues.

#11 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:15 PM

View Postweave, on 20 February 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Hey Blue, I bet you didn't realize you started a thread.   :P

I think it's safe to say I've accomplished more today without trying than Darcy has while trying :D

#12 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

He spoke to me in tongues.

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I think it's safe to say I've accomplished more today without trying than Darcy has while trying :D

I guess so.

#13 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

He spoke to me in tongues.

:w00t:

#14 weave

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

He spoke to me in tongues.

Its not polite to kiss and tell.

#15 inkman

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

He spoke to me in tongues.
...and I thought he was just another PP specialist

#16 sizzlemeister

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:31 PM

Talent begets the quality of execution.

Effort dictates the level of execution.

A low-talent player will not be able to execute his/her game objectives as well as a high-talent player if both were giving the same effort.

A low-talent player executing his/her game objectives with a high effort can perform equally to a high-talent player executing his/her game objectives with a low effort.

We have seen this team execute an excellent game of hockey at various times over the past two seasons.  A generally low-talent roster would not be able to do this against a team of equal or greater quality.

I do think execution is the issue, but the execution is not suffering because of a dearth of talent.  Rather, the execution is suffering because the talent is not being maximized by a complimentary level of effort.

#17 Taro T

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

View Postsizzlemeister, on 20 February 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Talent begets the quality of execution.

Effort dictates the level of execution.

A low-talent player will not be able to execute his/her game objectives as well as a high-talent player if both were giving the same effort.

A low-talent player executing his/her game objectives with a high effort can perform equally to a high-talent player executing his/her game objectives with a low effort.

We have seen this team execute an excellent game of hockey at various times over the past two seasons.  A generally low-talent roster would not be able to do this against a team of equal or greater quality.

I do think execution is the issue, but the execution is not suffering because of a dearth of talent.  Rather, the execution is suffering because the talent is not being maximized by a complimentary level of effort.
Which is a fancy way of saying that it appears that LR has lost this team.

#18 sizzlemeister

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostTaro T, on 20 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Which is a fancy way of saying that it appears that LR has lost this team.

The conclusion is obvious.  How I get there will be, I'm sure, trashed.

#19 Taro T

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

View Postsizzlemeister, on 20 February 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The conclusion is obvious.  How I get there will be, I'm sure, trashed.
:lol:

#20 rickshaw

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

The voice is probably like torture to those who've had to listen to it for so many years. This team needs a new voice and one that won't coddle them. It's time. Put the feelings aside and admit, it's time for a new voice.
See St Louis Blues.

#21 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:16 PM

View Postrickshaw, on 20 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

The voice is probably like torture to those who've had to listen to it for so many years. This team needs a new voice and one that won't coddle them. It's time. Put the feelings aside and admit, it's time for a new voice.
See St Louis Blues.

Wait, isn't the main complaint with Ruff that he is too harsh on his players? Where does this coddling complaint come from?

#22 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Wait, isn't the main complaint with Ruff that he is too harsh on his players? Where does this coddling complaint come from?

He's only too harsh when he's not coddling them.

#23 Spndnchz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

Lindy is calm, cool, and collective this year.  Trying new things.  He says it's the state of where the players, not just in Buffalo, are in general.  "You can be tough, you can be fair, but you need to communicate on a broader scale".

#24 ThirtyEight

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Lindy is calm, cool, and collective this year.  Trying new things.  He says it's the state of where the players, not just in Buffalo, are in general.  "You can be tough, you can be fair, but you need to communicate on a broader scale".

Pommers said they had a chat with him over the summer about communication. Shame, shows that Lindy is better when he channelling his inner Scotty Bowman

#25 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

Glaring problems: talent-wise, this team has five top-6 forwards and three top-4 defensemen. Our best centers are a disaster defensively, and need to start 60% of the time in the offensive end.....but the construction of the team makes that impossible. Yes, when 35 year old Hecht is the best player you can put out against Crosby, your team has a talent deficiency. That's not even getting into that Hodgson isn't a real #1 right now and if the team is better off with Ennis at wing. Foligno is playing one line too high, particularly as a rookie. Myers physically and mentally doesn't look ready to play.

This team is asking players to play above their talent and experience level against more talented and experienced competition. It a recipe for disaster, and that's on Regier. For Ruff's part, he insists on playing an aggressive scheme with rushing and pinching defenders and forwards deep in the zone. This can work, but our forwards aren't good enough at winning battles and with the puck to maintain possession. Most of our team also isn't fast enough to get back when things break down, and the inexperience at critical positions is causing us to get hemmed in defensively. They need to play a more conservative way to compete consistently IMO. Regier has given Ruff the wrong types of players and an unbalanced composition, while Ruff insists on playing a way his team doesn't have the talent to execute.

When you're asking a team to play against better players and in roles they aren't suited for, the results look like maddening inconsistency and up and down effort. But really, they don't have the talent to hit that "high note" on a regular basis, regardless of the effort put forth. My two cents.

#26 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Glaring problems: talent-wise, this team has five top-6 forwards and three top-4 defensemen. Our best centers are a disaster defensively, and need to start 60% of the time in the offensive end.....but the construction of the team makes that impossible. Yes, when 35 year old Hecht is the best player you can put out against Crosby, your team has a talent deficiency. That's not even getting into that Hodgson isn't a real #1 right now and if the team is better off with Ennis at wing. Foligno is playing one line too high, particularly as a rookie. Myers physically and mentally doesn't look ready to play.

This team is asking players to play above their talent and experience level against more talented and experienced competition. It a recipe for disaster, and that's on Regier. For Ruff's part, he insists on playing an aggressive scheme with rushing and pinching defenders and forwards deep in the zone. This can work, but our forwards aren't good enough at winning battles and with the puck to maintain possession. Most of our team also isn't fast enough to get back when things break down, and the inexperience at critical positions is causing us to get hemmed in defensively. They need to play a more conservative way to compete consistently IMO. Regier has given Ruff the wrong types of players and an unbalanced composition, while Ruff insists on playing a way his team doesn't have the talent to execute.

When you're asking a team to play against better players and in roles they aren't suited for, the results look like maddening inconsistency and up and down effort. But really, they don't have the talent to hit that "high note" on a regular basis, regardless of the effort put forth. My two cents.

I do think Regier has given Ruff the wrong team.

I don't think that there's a system that this group of players would have the talent to execute.

#27 Robviously

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Lindy is calm, cool, and collective this year.  Trying new things.  He says it's the state of where the players, not just in Buffalo, are in general.  "You can be tough, you can be fair, but you need to communicate on a broader scale".
According to Chris Parker (Bulldog) on WGR, a veteran player told him last year that Ruff was the "harshest" coach he'd ever had. Probably not a good sign if true, and probably not an indication that Ruff can just reinvent himself this year as a friendly players' coach.

At some point, relationships between unrelated adults just are what they are.  A coach, or a boss, can't hit the reset button and have everyone look at him like a whole new person.  First impressions matter, and they're hard to shake.

I don't think Ruff is a bad coach, but I think he's way past his expiration date here.  I think both he and the team would benefit from a split.

#28 TrueBluePhD

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:46 PM

View PostEleven, on 20 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

I do think Regier has given Ruff the wrong team.

I don't think that there's a system that this group of players would have the talent to execute.

I don't think this is the least talented team in the East, yet there they sit in the standings. I think it's pretty clear I was overly optimistic about a possible 6th place finish, but I firmly believe they're too talented to finish last.

#29 Spndnchz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I don't think this is the least talented team in the East, yet there they sit in the standings. I think it's pretty clear I was overly optimistic about a possible 6th place finish, but I firmly believe they're too talented to finish last.

6-10-1 equates to 29-48-5 for a full season.  That would make us last place last year.

#30 LGR4GM

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

So. What is the problem?

heart, miles and miles of heart

#31 Eleven

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

I don't think this is the least talented team in the East, yet there they sit in the standings. I think it's pretty clear I was overly optimistic about a possible 6th place finish, but I firmly believe they're too talented to finish last.

I think they are close to the least talented team in the East.  Someone asked me the same thing last week (I don't remember who or in which thread) and I said the same thing.

I think this team has a starting lineup that can match up with most teams in the league, but, unfortunately for the 2013 Sabres, substitutions are allowed in hockey.  Beyond their top line, top pairing, and Miller, the Sabs don't have much.

#32 Robviously

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostEleven, on 20 February 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I think they are close to the least talented team in the East.  Someone asked me the same thing last week (I don't remember who or in which thread) and I said the same thing.

I think this team has a starting lineup that can match up with most teams in the league, but, unfortunately for the 2013 Sabres, substitutions are allowed in hockey.  Beyond their top line, top pairing, and Miller, the Sabs don't have much.
And yet if Tyler Myers was playing as well as he did in 2009-2010, we'd be a playoff team for sure.  And Stafford was capable of scoring a goal every other game just two years ago.

I don't blame talent; I blame dysfunction.  We're not the most talented team in hockey but we're not nearly as bad as this.

BTW, I saw this last night and I'm still blown away by it:

Buffalo Rising@BuffaloRising
In the 126 games during Terry Pegula's ownership, the Sabres have earned 138 points. In the 126 games before that, they earned 140.

Edited by Robviously, 20 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.


#33 Claude_Verret

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostRobviously, on 20 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

BTW, I saw this last night and I'm still blown away by it:

Buffalo Rising@BuffaloRising
In the 126 games during Terry Pegula's ownership, the Sabres have earned 138 points. In the 126 games before that, they earned 140.

Damn. Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres reason for existence, yada yada yada..

#34 Spndnchz

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

Lindy fired!

#35 Robviously

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:17 PM

View PostSpndnchz, on 20 February 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Lindy fired!
No matter how necessary it was, it still feels bad.

#36 IKnowPhysics

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:25 PM

The problem is now we don't have a head coach.

#37 Grumpy

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostIKnowPhysics, on 20 February 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

The problem is now we don't have a head coach.

Yea, cuz we were going to make the playoffs............

#38 Loyalty

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup.  This year's problem isn't toughness, it's talent/execution.

Theres different types of toughness. Are we individually tough? Yes. We do step up for teammates. We don't take pushed around and no, Miller won't get run over because if he does, we will fix it 1 on 1.

Do we have team toughness? Very little. I love Ott and what he brings but it's a small sample size. There isn't a team in the NHL that has to worry about the Sabres "toughness" when bringing up the puck up the ice, or when dumping the puck into a corner, or do we ever wear anybody down because we are hitting and abusing them. These guys are SOFT, essp on defense and that is a BIG problem.

#39 deluca67

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostTrueBluePhD, on 20 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Yup.  This year's problem isn't toughness, it's talent/execution.

View PostEleven, on 20 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

I've been saying it since summertime.  Building a team to get tough with the Bruins is not a recipe for success.
Until toughness becomes a core value of this franchise it will always remain a problem.

I wish I had the exact quote, Regier sad he brought in John Scott so players on this roster wouldn't be skating scared. Adding John Scott doesn't solve the problem, getting rid of any player that skates scared is the solution. it has been a major flaw of Regier's, he continually departmentalizes those physical values. In his mind having one player that fights and a couple that hit solves the toughness issue. It is a clear example of how he does not understand those qualities and the value they bring to a team.

#40 bunomatic

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostDeLuca67, on 20 February 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Until toughness becomes a core value of this franchise it will always remain a problem.

I wish I had the exact quote, Regier sad he brought in John Scott so players on this roster wouldn't be skating scared. Adding John Scott doesn't solve the problem, getting rid of any player that skates scared is the solution. it has been a major flaw of Regier's, he continually departmentalizes those physical values. In his mind having one player that fights and a couple that hit solves the toughness issue. It is a clear example of how he does not understand those qualities and the value they bring to a team.

  I couldn't agree more. Well put.