76 replies to this topic

[LabattBlue]

They weren't elite when Quinny made the claim, and they are even further from that statement now.

Numerous draft picks spent on defensemen(Myers, Sekera, Weber, Brennan, Persson, Scheistel, McNabb, MacKenzie, Feinhage, Gragnani, Butler, Pysyk, etc..), ones brought in via F/A(Ehrhoff & Leopold), others brought in via trade(Regehr & Rivet), and this team still sucks in their own end.  They excel at NOTHING.  Not skating the puck out of their own end, offensive contributions, play in their own zone, physical play, and on and on and on.

One 4 goal period masks the problems, we all get excited, and then a 6-1 pasting at the hands of the mediocre Montreal team.

[TheChimp]

I'm sorry, we will never know what this team could be with a good coaching staff.

[PASabreFan]

Ehrhoff, five goals as a Sabre.

Discuss.

[LabattBlue]

PASabreFan, on 02 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Ehrhoff, five goals as a Sabre.

Discuss.

The Sabre paid him big money for his SHOT, but they can't figure out how to get him in a position on the PP to be the trigger man.   That one is on the coaches.

[d4rksabre]

LabattBlue, on 02 February 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The Sabre paid him big money for his SHOT, but they can't figure out how to get him in a position on the PP to be the trigger man.   That one is on the coaches.

He has been taking a fair amount of shots this year, but I agree.

[bunomatic]

The D and depth of our D is highly over rated. The forwards are generally smallish and considered talented but always seem to be in an offensive funk. In a prolonged slump if you will. We are a mess. If this group of players are as good as T.P. and Regier say where does the blame fall? Am I to believe that its just a case of an entire roster being unmotivated and unprofessional ? Is Regiers ability to judge talent that off ? Is regiers ability to assemble a cohesive team capable of playing with and for each other that bad ? Where does the blame lie for this mess ? And if this team is as good as team management says why are they not able to get the best out of them. Everyone speaks about the great scouting,drafting and player development of the Sabres. If that really is the case when does that pay off?  After how many years ? What does Lindy owe his longevity to as a coach and where and when did the glory years happen ? Truthfully I can't remember any. He's had some success but coaches lose their jobs all the time with better records than his.

  Thats my rant. Breath. Breath.

[SabresBillsFan]

I will say this much a lot of the blame needs to be put on Darcy Regier and all the scouts! They need to draft guys that have skill and that can skate. If u are a mediocre skater you will probably never have speed or the skill to compete full time at the NHL level. I remember how many second rounders Darcy pissed away on a rental player that they never kept. I'm sorry but their is a lot of quality players in the second round that could be there to help now. Lets see Zubrus, Moore, and Torres all a complete waste of second round picks. Then drafting smallish forwards. Really it's okay u have one or possibly two if they are both highly skilled but we tend to get small forwards who aren't that highly skilled. I think this teams a mess and what scares me is when Pegula first came into talks with the media about how they talk about Darcy and Lindy and certain players and that he thought the media in buffalo( wgr and the buffalo news is to tough on the team). Sorry Tom but you should have started with a clean slate when you bought the team. Lindys message and system is old and stale and its so obvious to see. Darcy has been here too long and accomplished nothing. It's time to turn the page as these two clowns aren't going to win u the Stanley Cup. I want this team to keep losing that's the only way things will change.

[deluca67]

I never understood how so many considered the Sabres defense deep and a real strength of the team. I just couldn't see what they were seeing, at least I am not the only one. The centerpiece Tyler Myers has not looked like a top pairing defenseman let alone a franchise defenseman. Sekera is Sekera, not spectacular but consistent. Ehrhoff is an offensive defenseman and not particularity strong in his own end. The rest is a collection of d-men that are either still young or have seen their betters days gone by.

[LGR4GM]

Well another game has passed and yet again Tyler Myers our stud defender looks lost and confused. Idk if the coaches are in his head or hes in his own head or what.  All I know is that our defense is laughable and soft.  He is a -6 through 9 games and has 1 pt.  I mean what the hell is going on?  His defense partner Leopold is -8 and yet ruff keeps putting soft and softer together. It just doesn't make sense especially when Mike Weber is better offensively and defensively.

Basically my point is that our "top" defensive pairing is a complete cluster ###k

[Jsixspd]

LGR4GM, on 04 February 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

His defense partner Leopold is -8 and yet ruff keeps putting soft and softer together. It just doesn't make sense especially when Mike Weber is better offensively and defensively.

Basically my point is that our "top" defensive pairing is a complete cluster ###k

I don't understand why Ruff continues to pair Myers with Leopold - they are both weak, and having two weak D-Men on the ice at the same time usually ends up with the opponent scoring (and they have).  

Many of the recent goals scored against the Sabres - Myers, Leopold, or Myers and Leopold together were on the ice at the same time.   You'll see opponents skate right around these guys and then get deep into the Buffalo zone.

I cannot understand why Lindy Ruff is apparently unable to see that both players are in a serious slump, and that putting them on the ice together is almost like giving a Power Play to the other team.

Edited by Jsixspd, 04 February 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Spndnchz]

Jsixspd, on 04 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I don't understand why Ruff continues to pair Myers with Leopold - they are both weak, and having two weak D-Men on the ice at the same time usually ends up with the opponent scoring (and they have).  

Many of the recent goals scored against the Sabres - Myers, Leopold, or Myers and Leopold together were on the ice at the same time.   You'll see opponents skate right around these guys and then get deep into the Buffalo zone.

I cannot understand why Lindy Ruff is apparently unable to see that both players are in a serious slump, and that putting them on the ice together is almost like giving a Power Play to the other team.

Myers was paired up with Brennan most of the Panthers game.  I saw Brennan a few times standing at the blue line and seemed surprised that the puck was in the corner already.  it was like he was saying "where'd the puck go?  oh crap"

[Who Else?]

Mike Weber should hold a d- only practice and shoe=w the rest of the softies how to take the body and how to crisply move the puck.

[waldo]

Lashoff is a free agent at the end of the year, sign him..lol .. a baby, age wise , and a stay at home defender ready now to play third pair  in the NHL.. An impressive appearence with Detroit  over a five game stint..  

An excellent acquistion for a team in the rebuilding phase.. Brennan, Weber, Hoff, Sekerra, Lashoff and et al....



(In the world of fandom you are only as good as your last game.).

Edited by waldo, 04 February 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

Can these guys (the defense) get back to playing like they did at the beginning and end of last year? or has the ship sailed? Why? What Happened?

[apuszczalowski]

DeLuca67, on 03 February 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I never understood how so many considered the Sabres defense deep and a real strength of the team. I just couldn't see what they were seeing, at least I am not the only one. The centerpiece Tyler Myers has not looked like a top pairing defenseman let alone a franchise defenseman. Sekera is Sekera, not spectacular but consistent. Ehrhoff is an offensive defenseman and not particularity strong in his own end. The rest is a collection of d-men that are either still young or have seen their betters days gone by.

But Tyler won the Calder which means he should be an amazing player thats only gonna get better, no player has ever won an award and never panned out afterwards!
He is also tall which means he is Chara 2.0!

Its all Ruffs fault, fire him and everythign will be sunshine and rainbows and regier will be unshackled from the burden of Ruff to make moves of his own

[nucci]

Another poster mentioned Tallinder and Lydman. These 2 were solid D-Men and Myers played his best with Tallinder.

[sabres4life19]

Our defense is so mediocre at this point its sad.

Weber hanging out in the pressbox for the first 5 games ends up looking like our best defenseman.
Sekera has been consistent and i think looked good, but of course gets hurt (although not badly luckily)
Regehr looks slow but still solid in his own end but looking like its time to move on after this year
Ehrhoff looks good overall but still not getting involved offensively yet like he should be.
Leopold at times looks ok but more often than not has been playing like a rookie whos not ready for the nhl
Myers much like leopold looks afraid of playing the body and confused in his own end like hes never done this before.
Brennan in limited action looks eager to join the rush but has made some bad decisions in his own end. i still have faith w/ him
Sulzer looks like the game is a little too fast for him sometimes and makes poor choices, has been just OK overall

nucci, on 04 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Another poster mentioned Tallinder and Lydman. These 2 were solid D-Men and Myers played his best with Tallinder.

Look at the guys we have let walk away. They were KEY pieces of a winning team that have not been properly replaced. Tallinder Lydman Drury Briere. this will open up a can of worms but its a valid point when discussing our defense now.

[drnkirishone]

There is so much talent on defense for the sabres that i get heated just thinking about how much they have been sucking. I really think the problem might be patrick. Regardless of who is at fault i think the play of the defense is gonna be what gets Ruff fired

[Grumpy]

Who Else?, on 04 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Mike Weber should hold a d- only practice and shoe=w the rest of the softies how to take the body and how to crisply move the puck.

  Maybe he should. Patrick can't teach that by example.

[dudacek]

This defence is about to get elite; Pardy called up.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

LGR4GM, on 04 February 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Well another game has passed and yet again Tyler Myers our stud defender looks lost and confused. Idk if the coaches are in his head or hes in his own head or what.  All I know is that our defense is laughable and soft.  He is a -6 through 9 games and has 1 pt.  I mean what the hell is going on?  His defense partner Leopold is -8 and yet ruff keeps putting soft and softer together. It just doesn't make sense especially when Mike Weber is better offensively and defensively.

Basically my point is that our "top" defensive pairing is a complete cluster ###k

Tyler Myers salary for this season is $12,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!

He gets paid more than virtually every defenseman in the league except for Shea Weber ($14 mil) and Ryan Suter ($12 mil).

The next highest paid defenseman is Christian Ehrhoff at $8,000,000 this year.

$20,000,000 freakin' dollars this year for just Myers and Ehrhoff. Now that is what I call value for money!!

[MattPie]

PotentPowerPlay22, on 05 February 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

$20,000,000 freakin' dollars this year for just Myers and Ehrhoff. Now that is what I call value for money!!

I assume you'll be doing flips in 5 years when they're making something like $5m combined then, right?

FWIW, using the numbers that matter, Myers is 18th in the league and Ehrhoff is 47th (in a big tie). Regehr edges Ehrhoff by the cost of a base mid-size sedan to be 43rd. Myers isn't worth the hit right now for sure, I don't mind Regehr and Ehrhoff.

Edited by MattPie, 05 February 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Grumpy]

MattPie, on 05 February 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I assume you'll be doing flips in 5 years when they're making something like $5m combined then, right?

FWIW, using the numbers that matter, Myers is 18th in the league and Ehrhoff is 47th (in a big tie). Regehr edges Ehrhoff by the cost of a base mid-size sedan to be 43rd. Myers isn't worth the hit right now for sure, I don't mind Regehr and Ehrhoff.

  If we are the one's paying them then, yes.

[LGR4GM]

I bet the Sabres don't give Weber a good deal this summer and he ends up leaving either in a trade or in another year.  If he was 6'6" or taller I bet they would give him more money... It tells me a lot that the coaches bench a guy who repeatedly comes in and plays better than 4 of the 6 other defenders above him on the depth chart.

we need a new defensive coach who has no ties to ruff or anything like that. completely from outside and challenges ruff

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

LGR4GM, on 05 February 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I bet the Sabres don't give Weber a good deal this summer and he ends up leaving either in a trade or in another year.  If he was 6'6" or taller I bet they would give him more money... It tells me a lot that the coaches bench a guy who repeatedly comes in and plays better than 4 of the 6 other defenders above him on the depth chart.

we need a new defensive coach who has no ties to ruff or anything like that. completely from outside and challenges ruff

I know it's only a half measure, but I am HUGELY in favor of this move.

[TrueBluePhD]

PotentPowerPlay22, on 05 February 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Tyler Myers salary for this season is $12,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!!

He gets paid more than virtually every defenseman in the league except for Shea Weber ($14 mil) and Ryan Suter ($12 mil).

The next highest paid defenseman is Christian Ehrhoff at $8,000,000 this year.

$20,000,000 freakin' dollars this year for just Myers and Ehrhoff. Now that is what I call value for money!!

I'm sure you recognize Myers was given that contract for what the organization feels he will become within the next few years, not what he currently is (or was, when he signed the deal).  Or, perhaps, you do not recognize this.

[apuszczalowski]

TrueBluePhD, on 05 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I'm sure you recognize Myers was given that contract for what the organization feels he will become within the next few years, not what he currently is (or was, when he signed the deal).  Or, perhaps, you do not recognize this.

Thats what gets you in trouble with a salary cap, paying players for their potential, not for what they have actually done.
Myers has done nothing to deserve that kind of money right now, his play has been getting worse every year, not better, yet we all hoe he is going to be the next Chara and use that to justify his salary.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

apuszczalowski, on 05 February 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Thats what gets you in trouble with a salary cap, paying players for their potential, not for what they have actually done.
Myers has done nothing to deserve that kind of money right now, his play has been getting worse every year, not better, yet we all hoe he is going to be the next Chara and use that to justify his salary.

LastPommerFan, on 01 February 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

The myth that Tyler Myers has been in some sort of 2 year decline is insane.

Tyler is developing into a top 2 offensive defenseman

2009-2010 was a stellar rookie year, indisputable
2010-2011 he finished 32nd among defensemen in pts. That's top 2 by any stretch.
2011-2012 he was injured for a huge chunk of the season, and it had a major impact on the team (going sub .500 with him out, 9-12 I think)
  Despite the lost time, he still finished with 23 points, good for 70th among defensemen (there are 60 top pair defensemen in the league)
  His pace put him to 34 points if he hadn't been injured. which would have been good for 29th.
  his 109 points make him the 94th highest scoring active defencemen.
  he is the 7th highest scoring defenseman with 5 or fewer seasons (he has 3)
  He trails only Karlsson of players with 3 or fewer seasons
  He is 27th among all active defensemen with .49 ppg

His cap hit is in line with a top pair offensive defenseman and he has been playing like a top pair offensive defensman for since he came in. He is struggling in his own end right now, and it is effecting his game, but I am certain that this is a rough patch, and not a degradation in his potential.

The deal puts him as the 18th highest paid defenseman right now, that number will go down as more guys sign new contracts. It's a good deal, he's playing poorly right now, but he'll get out of it.

Edited by LastPommerFan, 05 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[apuszczalowski]

LastPommerFan, on 05 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The deal puts him as the 18th highest paid defenseman right now, that number will go down as more guys sign new contracts. It's a good deal, he's playing poorly right now, but he'll get out of it.

Showing his points and all is fine, but theres alot more to playing defence then scoring and getting assists. Take away the points and how is he doing at actually playing defence? Using offensive stats to value a defencemen is like using batting average to evaluate a pitcher in baseball

Edited by apuszczalowski, 05 February 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[TrueBluePhD]

apuszczalowski, on 05 February 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Thats what gets you in trouble with a salary cap, paying players for their potential, not for what they have actually done.
Myers has done nothing to deserve that kind of money right now, his play has been getting worse every year, not better, yet we all hoe he is going to be the next Chara and use that to justify his salary.

It certainly can get you in trouble.  It can also be a gigantic bargain.  Claude Giroux is only making $3.75 million.  Dan Girardi is making $3.3.  Lucic is making $4 (although his $6 million extension kicks in next year).  Jordan Staal was only making $4.  I'm not about to go through every big second contract to see if the player ended up being under or over paid (I'm sure you can forgive me for not doing so ), but my guess is it's at worst a 50/50 proposition, and probably tilted more towards the bargain side.

Edit:  Obviously you shouldn't (and probably can't) do this for every RFA, but it's not an inherently flawed approach.  Just have to identify the right guys to do it for.

Edited by TrueBluePhD, 05 February 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[nfreeman]

DeLuca67, on 03 February 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I never understood how so many considered the Sabres defense deep and a real strength of the team. I just couldn't see what they were seeing, at least I am not the only one. The centerpiece Tyler Myers has not looked like a top pairing defenseman let alone a franchise defenseman. Sekera is Sekera, not spectacular but consistent. Ehrhoff is an offensive defenseman and not particularity strong in his own end. The rest is a collection of d-men that are either still young or have seen their betters days gone by.

I think that both Myers and Sekera have very high ceilings.  Myers came into the season a bit rusty and out of shape -- probably due to his ankle injury -- struggled a bit and seems to have lost confidence.  Reggie has played well but as you say unspectacularly (although he's shown a few flashes).

I also think that Regehr and Ehrhoff are both very solid top-3 upper-tier veteran defensemen.  No problems there.

That leaves Sulzer, Leopold, Weber, Brennan and the Amerks to round out slots 5-7.  Weber's game is improved over last year.  I like him in the top 6, and I think the #6 slot can be capably filled by whoever out of the rest is playing well.

What I do think is very important is for the D as a group to be more physical and harder to play against.  None of Ehrhoff, Myers and Reggie are particularly physical -- so the other 3 need to be tough SOBs.  Regehr and Weber should be 2 of them, and I don't want Leo or Sulzer as the 3rd unless one of Ehrhoff, Myers or Reggie is hurt.

I think Myers will re-find his mojo, Reggie will continue to improve and Regehr will heal up.  I'd like to see Brennan take the #6 slot and Sulzer and Leopold in the press box.

LastPommerFan, on 05 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The deal puts him as the 18th highest paid defenseman right now, that number will go down as more guys sign new contracts. It's a good deal, he's playing poorly right now, but he'll get out of it.

I agree.

Separately:  here are a couple of items from Elliotte Friedman on the Sabres' D:

Quote

24. Teams are looking for defencemen and the Buffalo Sabres have eight. But Sabres GM Darcy Regier says he's told teams, "Give me a reason to trade one." So far, he feels he hasn't received a good enough answer.


26. Martin Biron tells a great story about walking into the Buffalo room for the first time, seeing large photos of Rob Ray, Brad May and Matthew Barnaby posing as boxers and thinking, "What the heck is this?" It'll never be like that again, but the team is really trying to re-establish an edge. That's why they got Steve Ott and John Scott. It's why Marcus Foligno's development is so important. But they lack it on their blue-line. Teams are walking through their zone.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...keep-weiss.html

I don't disagree with wanting to get value for a defenseman (presumably Leopold) -- we're already seeing why it's useful to have a few extra -- but I sure hope he gets a good offer (like a decent forward who can win faceoffs) soon.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

apuszczalowski, on 05 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Showing his points and all is fine, but theres alot more to playing defence then scoring and getting assists. Take away the points and how is he doing at actually playing defence? Using offensive stats to value a defencemen is like using batting average to evaluate a pitcher in baseball

No. It's not, but here:

2010-2011 (the season before the contract was signed) he finished 7th among d-men with more than 60 games in Relative Corsi.

He's a great defenseman having a terrible month.

[Taro T]

LastPommerFan, on 05 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

No. It's not, but here:

2010-2011 (the season before the contract was signed) he finished 7th among d-men with more than 60 games in Relative Corsi.

He's a potentially great defenseman having a terrible month 1st 5th of the season.

Fixed it for you.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

Taro T, on 05 February 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Fixed it for you.

Technically not through 1/5th of the season yet, if you want to split hairs.

[Taro T]

LastPommerFan, on 05 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Technically not through 1/5th of the season yet, if you want to split hairs.

We're 36 minutes shy of 1/5th of the season.  You expecting him to go on a rampage tonight?  (And if he doesn't, then it would be 'for more than 1/5th of the season' if you want to split hairs, or with 4 minutes left in the 2nd if you REALLY want to split hairs. )

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

Taro T, on 05 February 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

We're 36 minutes shy of 1/5th of the season.  You expecting him to go on a rampage tonight?  (And if he doesn't, then it would be 'for more than 1/5th of the season' if you want to split hairs, or with 4 minutes left in the 2nd if you REALLY want to split hairs. )

Well, he's either going to play very very well tonight, or we are going to get killed.

We will know in 36 minutes I guess!

[PotentPowerPlay22]

TrueBluePhD, on 05 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I'm sure you recognize Myers was given that contract for what the organization feels he will become within the next few years, not what he currently is (or was, when he signed the deal).  Or, perhaps, you do not recognize this.

I used Capgeek.com for the numbers. I recognize there is a difference between salary and cap hit. I recognize the numbers change from year to year. What I also recognize is that Myers is playing poorly and he is nowhere near worth what they are paying him. I am not satisfied, but I am consoled by the fact they so many people here are satisfied by what a good deal the Sabres got with Myers.

I guess my big mistake was focusing on results and what my own two eyes see rather focusing on "potential" and "high ceilings". I apologize for my oversight.

Edited by PotentPowerPlay22, 05 February 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

PotentPowerPlay22, on 05 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I used Capgeek.com for the numbers. I recognize there is a difference between salary and cap hit. I recognize the numbers change from year to year. What I also recognize is that Myers is playing poorly and he is nowhere near worth what they are paying him. I am not satisfied, but I am consoled by the fact they so many people here are satisfied by what a good deal the Sabres got with Myers.

I guess my big mistake was focusing on results and what my own two eyes see rather focusing on "potential" and "high ceilings". I apologize for my oversight.

Your problem was focusing on 9 games in a strange year.

If he plays 40 games at this level you would be absolutely correct.

[MattPie]

PotentPowerPlay22, on 05 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I am not satisfied, but I am consoled by the fact they so many people here are satisfied by what a good deal the Sabres got with Myers. I guess my big mistake was focusing on results and what my own two eyes see rather focusing on "potential" and "high ceilings". I apologize for my oversight.

LastPommerFan, on 05 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Your problem was focusing on 9 games in a strange year. If he plays 40 games at this level you would be absolutely correct.

OK PP22, don't get bent out of shape. The point of the Myers contract was that when it was signed, it looked like he was going to be a force of nature. If you're going to pay for results, you'd be paying him $7m+ if he had continued on his trajectory. That's the gamble. You lock someone up early and hopefully that contract becomes a bargain. Sometimes you get burned (and I'm not saying Myers is in that category yet). I doubt anyone could build a team only paying players that have proven themselves; you'd have 6 F, 4 D, a goalie, and $10m left to fill out those remaining 8-10 spots. This is why GMs get the big bucks.

[LGR4GM]

Can someone name a good contract that Darcy has given out?