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#441 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

View Postdrnkirishone, on 26 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:


I am one of the ones that believes guns are just a tool and thinks my tax dollars should entitle me to healthcare

Do you think your tax dollars entitle everyone else to health care?

#442 bunomatic

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostLastPommerFan, on 26 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Do you think your tax dollars entitle everyone else to health care?

  Mine do.

#443 Eleven

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View Postdrnkirishone, on 26 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I am one of the ones that believes guns are just a tool and thinks my tax dollars should entitle me to healthcare

I'm with you.  Especially with what I pay for health care.


View PostLastPommerFan, on 26 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Do you think your tax dollars entitle everyone else to health care?

Why not?  We're over-policing because of guns; why not shift that major expenditure into a positive direction?

Edited by Santa Claus, 26 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#444 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostSanta Claus, on 26 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:



I'm with you.  Especially with what I pay for health care.




Why not?  We're over-policing because of guns; why not shift that major expenditure into a positive direction?

I agree, my point is that modern  mainstream conservatism blames mental health, not guns, but while spending a lot of time protecting guns, they also actively undercut efforts to provide the healthcare that would help reduce the number of people who go untreated long enough to become dangerous.

#445 MattPie

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostLastPommerFan, on 26 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I agree, my point is that modern  mainstream conservatism blames mental health, not guns, but while spending a lot of time protecting guns, they also actively undercut efforts to provide the healthcare that would help reduce the number of people who go untreated long enough to become dangerous.

I wonder many of the "dangerous people" are unstable and can't hold down a good enough job to have benefits. They're probably not going to pay for it themselves, either.

#446 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:09 PM

View PostMattPie, on 27 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:



I wonder many of the "dangerous people" are unstable and can't hold down a good enough job to have benefits. They're probably not going to pay for it themselves, either.

To some extent, the aurora shooter was a student, so he had access, so did the Newtown kid. The bigger problem is that the system for mental health is very weak. Billions need to be invested to modernize it and remove the stigma still lingering from the asylum era. A major national campaign to normalize mental health issues would work wonders. But this would all cost tax payer money, so most of the same people that say, "hands off my semi automatic rifle with expanded capacity ammo" would also say, "hands off my money evil 'big government'". I think we need to do both. Major gun restrictions, starting with what weave had suggested, and ending with confiscation of all weapons or accessories capable of firing more than 8 rounds before reloading. Combine this with a major offensive against mental illness. Think Polio scale national health initiative.

Edited by LastPommerFan, 27 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.


#447 drnkirishone

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:55 PM

View PostLastPommerFan, on 26 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:



Do you think your tax dollars entitle everyone else to health care?
Yes

#448 DeLuca1967

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

Healthcare is a basic human right, which should be available to all without cost.

#449 Glass Case Of Emotion

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

View Postdrnkirishone, on 27 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:


Yes

Then lets get to work!

#450 Neo

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

View Postdrnkirishone, on 27 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:


Yes


What else do your tax dollars entitle you to and what do you say to other citizens who feel their tax dollars entitle them to other things?  For instance, if I believe my tax dollars entitle me to haircuts, is my claim as valid as yours, or is my sense of entitlement not as legitimate as yours?


View PostDeLuca67, on 27 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Healthcare is a basic human right, which should be available to all without cost.

Where can I go for this list of basic human rights that you have access to?  Can I add to or subtract from the list if it's not the same as mine?


...................

There are things I like for me and things I like for everyone.  There are constitutional rights we in America have.  I am entitled to constitutional rights.  I am entitled to nothing else.  I am joyfully taxed for benefits we as citizens like for everyone when we understand the cost, benefit and mechanism for funding.  Benefits that swamp costs are unsustainable.  I would love to see the funded benefit of healthcare for everyone.  I have a constitutional right to bear arms.

I use the words "right", "benefit" and "entitlement" very carefully and not interchangeably.

As an aside ...  I wonder if we differ, when we differ, along generational lines.  I am 51 years old.

You are all generous with your ideas and passion.

Edited by Neo, 27 December 2012 - 07:47 PM.


#451 Eleven

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

Neo, for at least several of the people with whom you are engaging in discussion, generation is not an issue.

And as for the rest, I really don't understand why it would make a difference.

#452 DeLuca1967

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostNeo, on 27 December 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

What else do your tax dollars entitle you to and what do you say to other citizens who feel their tax dollars entitle them to other things?  For instance, if I believe my tax dollars entitle me to haircuts, is my claim as valid as yours, or is my sense of entitlement not as legitimate as yours?




Where can I go for this list of basic human rights that you have access to?  Can I add to or subtract from the list if it's not the same as mine?


...................

There are things I like for me and things I like for everyone.  There are constitutional rights we in America have.  I am entitled to constitutional rights.  I am entitled to nothing else.  I am joyfully taxed for benefits we as citizens like for everyone when we understand the cost, benefit and mechanism for funding.  Benefits that swamp costs are unsustainable.  I would love to see the funded benefit of healthcare for everyone.  I have a constitutional right to bear arms.

I use the words "right", "benefit" and "entitlement" very carefully and not interchangeably.

As an aside ...  I wonder if we differ, when we differ, along generational lines.  I am 51 years old.

You are all generous with your ideas and passion.
Housing, clothing,  food and access to healthcare are the most basic human rights. I would never consider them benefits or "entitlements." I agree with you, they are not interchangeable.

#453 Neo

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

Eleven ...  thank you.  I wonder because my view of rights, entitlements, etc., has changed as I've aged.  When I'm feisty and debating, I say it's because I'm smarter than I used to be.  When I'm not feisty, I say it's because I'm a curmudgeon.  The truth is likely in between.

DeLuca .... thank you.  I, too, understand human rights.  Our lists are probably nearly the same.  I avoid the term when talking about how we govern ourselves.  I look for rights in our constitution and benefits where we agree on how to pay for them.

Not that anyone asked, but I am fiscally conservative, constitutionally awed, socially liberal, and misty eyed in love with humanity.

PS ... I am entitled to World Junior Hockey!

Edited by Neo, 27 December 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#454 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:10 AM

View PostNeo, on 27 December 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

What else do your tax dollars entitle you to and what do you say to other citizens who feel their tax dollars entitle them to other things?  For instance, if I believe my tax dollars entitle me to haircuts, is my claim as valid as yours, or is my sense of entitlement not as legitimate as yours?

I really appreciate your input.  I don't think that this debate is generational.

Couldn't resist saying that, based on your avatar photo, you may want to re-think your sense of entitlement to haircuts ... ;) .


Just kidding, of course.

View PostDeLuca67, on 27 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Housing, clothing,  food and access to healthcare are the most basic human rights. I would never consider them benefits or "entitlements." I agree with you, they are not interchangeable.

I find it funny, but not in a ha - ha way, that we in the developed world pay lip service to the items you listed as basic human rights for people in the developing / under-developed world, but so many of our own people do not have these.

#455 Claude_Verret

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:48 AM

View Postweave, on 26 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

It serves to make those homes targets for break ins when the occupants are away.  Stupid fecking decision.

Awesome.

http://www.newrochel...ur-neighborhood

#456 Neo

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 10:01 AM

View PostSabres Fan In NS, on 28 December 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:



I really appreciate your input.  I don't think that this debate is generational.

Couldn't resist saying that, based on your avatar photo, you may want to re-think your sense of entitlement to haircuts ... ;) .


Awesome!   You're right, haircuts are not a top priority for me!

#457 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

Hey, Chris.

What the heck is going on in Utah ...

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...n-shooting.html

I don't really think this is a good idea.

Edited by Sabres Fan In NS, 28 December 2012 - 05:30 PM.


#458 biodork

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

View PostSabres Fan In NS, on 28 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Hey, Chris.

What the heck is going on in Utah ...

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...n-shooting.html

I don't really think this is a good idea.

I agree. Much like the publishing of gun owner information makes them a potential target for theft, this might make it easier for a student to end up with a firearm, since they would need to be in the classroom to be of any use in the event of an attack. Just a terrible idea all-around.

#459 DeLuca1967

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:28 AM

Yeah! We don't have a problem in this country! :doh:

http://usnews.nbcnew...cid=msnhp&pos=1

#460 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostDeLuca67, on 29 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah! We don't have a problem in this country! :doh:

http://usnews.nbcnew...cid=msnhp&pos=1

To everyone afraid that if guns are controlled the ante will be uped ... those stakes have been raised already.

#461 Sabres Fan In NS

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

The plot thickens ...

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t3

Looks like if convicted she would get ONLY 10 years.  WTF!!


EDIT:

Seems like up to 10 years max. and a fine of up to $250,000.  That's BS!

Edited by Sabres Fan In NS, 29 December 2012 - 02:26 PM.


#462 Miller30

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 02:49 PM

View PostDeLuca67, on 29 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah! We don't have a problem in this country! :doh:

http://usnews.nbcnew...cid=msnhp&pos=1

Yep it's important that we rid the streets of non-functioning training aids. Just another fine example of some media outlets failing to properly research a story before publishing. I'm sure at some point they will print a correction someplace where nobody will read it. Those rocket launcher training aids are no more dangerous than my gutter downspout. Might make a nice spud gun.

Those type of rocket launchers (AT4) are single shot - can't be reloaded, the tube is a worthless piece of fiberglass. Oh and the yellow band is an indicator of a training aid, never contained a rocket - just a noise maker.

Edited by Miller30, 29 December 2012 - 02:50 PM.


#463 weave

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:06 PM

View PostSabres Fan In NS, on 29 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

The plot thickens ...

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t3

Looks like if convicted she would get ONLY 10 years.  WTF!!


EDIT:

Seems like up to 10 years max. and a fine of up to $250,000.  That's BS!

If I am not mistaken, if you are an accomplice to a felony act and someone is killed as a result of that felony, you can be charged with murder even if you were not directly involved in the killing.  She may yet end up with murder charges against her.

#464 Patty16

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

View Postweave, on 29 December 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

If I am not mistaken, if you are an accomplice to a felony act and someone is killed as a result of that felony, you can be charged with murder even if you were not directly involved in the killing.  She may yet end up with murder charges against her.

indeed. Felony murder rule.

#465 Eleven

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

View PostPatty16, on 29 December 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

indeed. Felony murder rule.

It's been a long time, but doesn't the underlying felony have to be something other than murder itself, assault, or battery?  And doesn't the "accomplice" have to be an active participant in the underlying felony?

In other words, I think (if I remember correctly, as I said, it has been a long time) that the rule applies where a group of people are participating in an armed robbery or kidnapping or something, and someone dies during that action, but maybe not to this type of situation.

#466 SwampD

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

View PostEleven, on 29 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

It's been a long time, but doesn't the underlying felony have to be something other than murder itself, assault, or battery?  And doesn't the "accomplice" have to be an active participant in the underlying felony?

In other words, I think (if I remember correctly, as I said, it has been a long time) that the rule applies where a group of people are participating in an armed robbery or kidnapping or something, and someone dies during that action, but maybe not to this type of situation.
I mean no offense, but this is the very kind of lawyer speak that the rest of us think is completely insane.

#467 d4rksabre

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

View PostEleven, on 29 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:



It's been a long time, but doesn't the underlying felony have to be something other than murder itself, assault, or battery?  And doesn't the "accomplice" have to be an active participant in the underlying felony?

In other words, I think (if I remember correctly, as I said, it has been a long time) that the rule applies where a group of people are participating in an armed robbery or kidnapping or something, and someone dies during that action, but maybe not to this type of situation.

I think NYS penal code uses the causality clause. If you do something to directly enable a crime, you can be tried for that crime. Think buying booze for minors, you can be held accountable for any crime those kids commit while drunk on the booze you bought em.

#468 d4rksabre

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

Actually it might be case law. For some reason the notion of it not being common law is occurring to me. In any event, I'm confident that there would be precedent to try this woman for all of the crimes Spangler committed with the guns she bought him.

#469 Eleven

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 01:50 PM

View PostSwampD, on 29 December 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I mean no offense, but this is the very kind of lawyer speak that the rest of us think is completely insane.

None taken.  And it's been forever since I had to know regular ol' criminal law, so I could very well be off the mark.  Basically, with the exception of some white collar crime stuff (RICO anyone?), I forgot all of it about three shots after the bar exam.

#470 TheMatrix31

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:57 AM


NSFW
lmao, too funny

#471 SwampD

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

View PostTheMatrix31, on 31 December 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:



lmao, too funny
We may disagree on a lot, but this is absolutely fantastic.

#472 bunomatic

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

You talkin to me bitch? It would be interesting to know how many people those actors have killed on screen each in their movies and who's the most prolific cinematic killer. Its an irony thats not lost on anybody when they become spokespeople against senseless gun violence. I agree. Too funny.

Edited by bunomatic, 31 December 2012 - 11:25 AM.


#473 Claude_Verret

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

http://www.politico....rds-153103.html

Quote

The Journal News of West Nyack, N.Y., has hired armed security guards to defend its offices after receiving a torrent of phone calls and emails responding to the paper's publication of the names and addresses of area residents with pistol permits.
RGA Investigations, a private security company, "is doing private security at on location at the Journal News as a result of the negative response to the article," according to a police reportfirst obtained by the Rockland County Times
(Nanuet, N.Y.) and shared with POLITICO. The guards "are armed and will be on site during business hours through at least January 2, 2013."


#474 Eleven

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostClaude_Verret, on 02 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:


Stupid begets stupid begets more stupid.

Edited by Eleven, 02 January 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#475 Patty16

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostEleven, on 29 December 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

It's been a long time, but doesn't the underlying felony have to be something other than murder itself, assault, or battery?  And doesn't the "accomplice" have to be an active participant in the underlying felony?

In other words, I think (if I remember correctly, as I said, it has been a long time) that the rule applies where a group of people are participating in an armed robbery or kidnapping or something, and someone dies during that action, but maybe not to this type of situation.

Yes, the situations you described would be those most commonly used.  The victim must die as a result of the felony committed, but I don't believe assualt and battery are exlcuded.

#476 wjag

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:42 PM

Another day in America and another school shooting...

Nothing to see here.. all that happened was ONE student was critically injured....

   :yawn: Hardly worth the print in a paper...

#477 d4rksabre

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:09 PM

I saw something circulating on Facebook by my token "guns don't kill people" friends about some armed guard stopping a shooting today. Is it the same one?

#478 wjag

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:19 AM

Taft Union High School in CA...  No security guard...  Teacher talked him into dropping gun after he shot his first student..

#479 TheMatrix31

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:17 AM

View Postwjag, on 11 January 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Taft Union High School in CA...  No security guard...  Teacher talked him into dropping gun after he shot his first student..

http://twitchy.com/2...owed-in-school/

So again, warning signs were there and nobody could do anything about it because we simply can't offend anyone anymore in our society.

Sickening, sackless, pathetic PC society. We want safer schools but we're afraid to profile or do something about known threats. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Edited by TheMatrix31, 11 January 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#480 DeLuca1967

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostTheMatrix31, on 11 January 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

http://twitchy.com/2...owed-in-school/

So again, warning signs were there and nobody could do anything about it because we simply can't offend anyone anymore in our society.

Sickening, sackless, pathetic PC society. We want safer schools but we're afraid to profile or do something about known threats. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.
If only a math teacher had an AK47. :doh:

There is some good news on the war on guns. Mayor Bloomberg has started to put his money in backing candidates that oppose candidates supported by the NRA. Out of 7 races the Bloomberg backed candidate won four races. Also, Gabby Gifford is starting a lobby group to counter the NRA types, http://usnews.nbcnew...-gun-lobby?lite.

We are in the midst of a tremendous shift on how we deal with guns and gun violence in this country. With people like Bloomberg and Gifford willing to put some money behind a movement to make the country safer it will give the movement real teeth.

Edited by DeLuca67, 11 January 2013 - 07:35 AM.






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