165 replies to this topic

[deluca67]

31st school shooting in the United States since Columbine. 14 total worldwide during that same period of time.

[wjag]

shrader, on 14 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

I don't believe that for a second.  Maybe it's just semantics but calling the guy crazy is too easy of a way out.  There are some downright evil people out there who have no moral values whatsoever.

So I'll bite...

Evil is in the eyes of the beholder.  It isn't a real thing; it is a perception based off of established norms of behavior.

Something very clearly went wrong with this guy's brain.

I contend that a sane person doesn't walk into a classroom full of children and open fire.  The brain of this individual is/was damaged.  Under no circumstances does this individual ever get to see life outside of the penal/mental correction system.  And when he is dead, his brain should be dissected to help understand what goes wrong in some individuals.

Edit:  So I just now turned on the news..  Apparently he is dead too..  I'm glad to hear that.

Edited by wjag, 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Vanek-Man]

So apparently, the shooter is 20 year old Adam Lanza, who had his brothers Ryan Lanza's ID. Ryan Lanza's facebook and phone was blowing up, so he made several messages on facebook saying "it wasn't me" and "cnn f you, it wasnt me!" all while NOT realizing his own brother was the shooter, and his mom being dead. Absolutely wild. Per the AP, the shooters girlfriend is missing as well.

What a horror story.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

The only way you can do that to little kids is if you feel you have been wronged by them.

Odds are, shooter has some form of functional mental illness, had issues with the parents and felt the mother didn't give him enough attention....the mother probably fawned over her school kids and told many stories, her own son resented it and between the mental illness and other domestic issues, felt so cornered and scorned, that he went in for his just due. Probably a big recent event in his life to set it off....and add in the entitlement generation of society these days as well as the protectionist and coddling movement to add to his justification....and there you go.

Only a rough estimate given the incertainty of the circumstances...but that's how you see something like this happen.

[wjag]

To the makers of the Bushmaster, congratulations.  You have developed the perfect weapon for mowing down toddlers..

[inkman]

All sorts of bad info out there.  There should be real consequences to media outlets giving out bad info.  Imagine if you were pegged as the shooter only to find out its your brother.   I've heard 15 different varieties of who died where and when.

[wjag]

inkman, on 14 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

All sorts of bad info out there.  There should be real consequences to media outlets giving out bad info.  Imagine if you were pegged as the shooter only to find out its your brother.   I've heard 15 different varieties of who died where and when.

Imagine the horror of the brother.  His mother shot, brother goes out and mass murders children, kills himself and he is pegged as the bad guy by the media.

[Sabres Fan In NS]

We do not have children.

I can't imagine the anguish of the parents, but on the other hand I feel that somehow I do.

Special prayers have been said.

[deluca67]

wjag, on 14 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

To the makers of the Bushmaster, congratulations.  You have developed the perfect weapon for mowing down toddlers..

How about a congratulations for all those that make it possible for a 20 year old to have access to such a "perfect weapon for mowing down toddlers." Money and time well spent.

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

Today is an unspeakable, incomprehensible and deeply sickening tragedy. It pushes on the boundaries of what I can process and take in. God bless the people directly effected.

[North Buffalo]

Oof Newtown, CT is just Northeast of me about 10 miles from Danbury, CT and I again this year have to explain to my two young boys that this is not normal.  Last year a Dad in our area took a gun to his whole family after a nasty domestic divorce, killing the whole family.

All I know is my heart goes out to those families. Co-workers of mine know some of the victims and they are in shock.  I pray for peace both from the violence, but from the mind.

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

Today is an unspeakable, incomprehensible and deeply sickening tragedy. It pushes on the boundaries of what I can process and take in. God bless the people directly effected.

I agree gun control should be on another thread.  But I do think some part of it should be considered for the mentally deranged.

Edited by North Buffalo, 14 December 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[PASabreFan]

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

I kind of go back and forth on this. If by "this thread" you mean "this day," and I think that's a fair comparison, then when else is the time for the discussion? It sure as hell won't be on Monday, when, after the "Sunday shows," the media will pretty much be moving on. Actually, not just the media. This thread will be on page 2 by then. Sorry to be so cynical.

[Claude_Verret]

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

Agreed.

[North Buffalo]

wjag, on 14 December 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Imagine the horror of the brother.  His mother shot, brother goes out and mass murders children, kills himself and he is pegged as the bad guy by the media.

Agreed, sounds like they put him in protective costody and the media jumped at him as a bad guy.  More info is needed before any of that should have been written.

[PASabreFan]

DeLuca67, on 14 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Heard a report on WBEN that an ex-girlfriend and a male friend are missing.

18 children gunned down! Is this finally enough now? Can we please cut through the crap and do what's right?

I'm sure you're getting at gun control. Looking at the president today, quite a remarkable moment, you just wonder if he's going to have a heart to heart talk with himself over the holidays and come out resolved in 2013 to do something on the issue. Really, no matter where you stand on gun control, wouldn't it be refreshing to see genuine leadership?

[deluca67]

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

Today is an unspeakable, incomprehensible and deeply sickening tragedy. It pushes on the boundaries of what I can process and take in. God bless the people directly effected.

There is no better thread for such a discussion than a thread about a man killing 20 children and 6 adults with guns. It's a horrible tragedy in a growing list of gun related tragedies.

Tragedies like today will continue to happen until something is done about the gun problem in the country.

PASabreFan, on 14 December 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I'm sure you're getting at gun control. Looking at the president today, quite a remarkable moment, you just wonder if he's going to have a heart to heart talk with himself over the holidays and come out resolved in 2013 to do something on the issue. Really, no matter where you stand on gun control, wouldn't it be refreshing to see genuine leadership?

He doesn't have to worry about re-election. More people have been killed by American citizens with guns in this country than by "terrorists" in this country. Guns are the #1 threat to national security and I hope the President realizes that.

[Sabres Fan In NS]

Concerning gun control ...

I am in favour of it.

People will argue that it's their constitutional right.  When that doc was written the country was in a state of war for it's Independence.

Gun control will not stop the criminals from having them, but it will prevent these kinds of things from happening.

If it prevents just one, that's good enough for me.  I really think gun control would prevent many more than just one of these types of things from happening.  Sign me up.

[sizzlemeister]

This is a shocking tragedy. It's too bad people feel the need to make a political statement the moment something like this happens.

Coincidentally, a guy in China went crazy in a school with knife:

http://news.xinhuane...c_132041044.htm

Perhaps we ought to talk knife control, too.

[inkman]

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control...

I'm squarely against gin control

[TheMatrix31]

Damn, if only there were laws already in place against killing people.

People who politicize this make me ###### sick.

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

PASabreFan, on 14 December 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I kind of go back and forth on this. If by "this thread" you mean "this day," and I think that's a fair comparison, then when else is the time for the discussion? It sure as hell won't be on Monday, when, after the "Sunday shows," the media will pretty much be moving on. Actually, not just the media. This thread will be on page 2 by then. Sorry to be so cynical.

DeLuca67, on 14 December 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

There is no better thread for such a discussion than a thread about a man killing 20 children and 6 adults with guns. It's a horrible tragedy in a growing list of gun related tragedies.

Tragedies like today will continue to happen until something is done about the gun problem in the country.


He doesn't have to worry about re-election. More people have been killed by American citizens with guns in this country than by "terrorists" in this country. Guns are the #1 threat to national security and I hope the President realizes that.

By this thread I mean this thread. A much better thread for the gun control discussion is the Presidential Politics thread that has evolved into a thread for politics. This thread would in my opinion be best served as a place for people to express their grief at what has just happened.

And of course, the events today are very relevant to the political discussion.

[DontPatTheGerbe]

My heart goes out to all the families involved.  I hugged my son extra hard when I came home today and admittedly teared up while listening to details of the shooting on NPR.

I'm still wrangling with all of this in my head.  At first I was finally ready to admit that I think it is time to crack down and amp up US gun control law.  But, there is something that bothers me more:

Are Americans in denial regarding the importance of mental health?  I'm no doctor, therapist, or psychologist but I've got to believe that these tragedies could be averted via extensive research of the human brain and our mental states.  

There were Americans with guns twenty years ago and this stuff didn't happen.  It seems to have started with my generation.  Do we not take psychological health seriously enough?

[deluca67]

TheMatrix31, on 14 December 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Damn, if only there were laws already in place against killing people.

People who politicize this make me ###### sick.

At least when you get sick you head will already be firmly buried in the sand.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

DontPatTheGerbe, on 14 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

My heart goes out to all the families involved. I hugged my son extra hard when I came home today and admittedly teared up while listening to details of the shooting on NPR.

I'm still wrangling with all of this in my head. At first I was finally ready to admit that I think it is time to crack down and amp up US gun control law. But, there is something that bothers me more:

Are Americans in denial regarding the importance of mental health? I'm no doctor, therapist, or psychologist but I've got to believe that these tragedies could be averted via extensive research of the human brain and our mental states.

There were Americans with guns twenty years ago and this stuff didn't happen. It seems to have started with my generation. Do we not take psychological health seriously enough?

I believe it's multi-fold. The availability and use of drugs now and the seeming ease at which people can be diagnosed with "lesser" disorders, the environment both in a physical and emotional sense, the advance in technology with instant worldwide communication, movies, games, etc. perpetuating things, etc.

Kids used to grow up with a mom and a dad under the same roof...played football outside or with their dolls and used their imagination. It's all a cluster-f now and everone from age 1 day to 100 years is overstimulated.

A top starts to wobble off it's point and eventually it will shoot off the table......

[TheMatrix31]

There is no explaining evil. Stop trying to.

You give excuses to these murderous pieces of ######, you say "oh, he's just ill", and you just embolden them.

Absolutely ridiculous what our society has become in this regard. Everyone looking to "understand", to "empathize"....it's pathetic.

[Spndnchz]

DeLuca67, on 14 December 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

How about a congratulations for all those that make it possible for a 20 year old to have access to such a "perfect weapon for mowing down toddlers." Money and time well spent.

It's reported all the guns were the mothers. Why does a kindergarten teacher need an assault rifle?

[SDS]

Spndnchz, on 14 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's reported all the guns were the mothers. Why does a kindergarten teacher need an assault rifle?

Probably because her offspring is was a psycho...

So now, the mother was shot at home, is not a teacher, the father is alive, and Ryan is not the shooter.

http://abcnews.go.co...73#.UMvIKo5vNC8

Well done press, well done.

[deluca67]

Spndnchz, on 14 December 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

It's reported all the guns were the mothers. Why does a kindergarten teacher need an assault rifle?

I heard a stat quoted today, the ratio is 43-1, the number of times a legally owned gun is used on a friend or family member compared to an intruder. The idea that  a gun offers the owner safety and security is just a lie. All a gun does is put the owner and their family at risk. In this case it put 20 children and 6 adults at risk and cost them their lives.

[Eleven]

Vanek-Man, on 14 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

So apparently, the shooter is 20 year old Adam Lanza, who had his brothers Ryan Lanza's ID. Ryan Lanza's facebook and phone was blowing up, so he made several messages on facebook saying "it wasn't me" and "cnn f you, it wasnt me!" all while NOT realizing his own brother was the shooter, and his mom being dead. Absolutely wild. Per the AP, the shooters girlfriend is missing as well.

What a horror story.

That poor bastard.  And I don't mean the media.  His whole family is gone because of the horrible things that his brother did.

Sabres Fan In NS, on 14 December 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

We do not have children.

I can't imagine the anguish of the parents, but on the other hand I feel that somehow I do.

Special prayers have been said.

I don't have children, either, but I have a niece and a nephew for whom I'd gladly take one to spare my sister the pain.

LaFontaineToMogilny, on 14 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not to take any side for or against gin control, but I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.

Today is an unspeakable, incomprehensible and deeply sickening tragedy. It pushes on the boundaries of what I can process and take in. God bless the people directly effected.

It's already in another mass-shooting thread; someone else can resurrect that.  My views already are stated.

Edited by Eleven, 14 December 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[bunomatic]

DeLuca67, on 14 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Heard a report on WBEN that an ex-girlfriend and a male friend are missing.

18 children gunned down! Is this finally enough now? Can we please cut through the crap and do what's right?

I agree. That it took till post 37 to get to the heart of the matter says something. I know not many will agree with me sighting the old adage that guns don't kill people,people do but how many times in the past year have we all had this conversation. You can go to any channel on t.v. and watch the most demented violence and they will blur out a womans nipple. Thoughts and prayers to the poor relatives that will live with the aftermath of this senseless violence the rest of their lives.

Edited by bunomatic, 14 December 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[PASabreFan]

So many mothers of kids who survived (and a few fathers) are availing themselves to television news, even bringing their kids along for the filming. A woman is being interviewed on CNN right now. The kid's not in the shot. Anderson Cooper asked her how her daughter is doing. Well, mom's talking to Anderson, so she doesn't really know, does she? Seems kind of telling on a day like this, I don't know. I'll never understand how people so directly affected by tragedies can go on TV at times like this.

Meanwhile, Rudolph was on tonight. I don't think I've ever been sad watching it.

[Eleven]

And I just learned that a good friend lost her cousin in this today.  Dammit.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

My $0.02:

Now is exactly the time to make a poljtical statement about never letting this happen again. Just as 9/11/01 was exactly the time to make a political statement about never letting that happen again.

Edited by LastPommerFan, 14 December 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[K-9]

LastPommerFan, on 14 December 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

My $0.02:

No is exactly the time to make a poljtical statement about never letting this happen again. Just as 9/11/01 was exactly the time to make a political statement about never letting that happen again.

The idea that this isn't political is naive. Public safety, as it relates to the citizenry is, by definition, political. Having the discussion is not disrespecting those who perished today. Not at all. Indeed, having the discussion is a very important process for us to engage in. On many levels. Not the least of which is that it helps us to deal with our grief.

[weave]

DontPatTheGerbe, on 14 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Do we not take psychological health seriously enough?

No.  No we do not.

I'm guessing that you are not old enough to remember the closing of psychiatric centers like the one that closed in Gowanda in the 80's.  They were not good places, prisons really.  But they were honest attempts at the time to treat mental illness.  There are few places like that anymore.  Mental illness is treated by underpaid and underfunded social workers these days.  Mental health treatment and diagnosis is a joke today.  We as a society would rather blame environmental issues than get serious about folks that seem driven towards acts like what occurred today.

[Glass Case Of Emotion]

K-9, on 14 December 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

The idea that this isn't political is naive. Public safety, as it relates to the citizenry is, by definition, political. Having the discussion is not disrespecting those who perished today. Not at all. Indeed, having the discussion is a very important process for us to engage in. On many levels. Not the least of which is that it helps us to deal with our grief.

I agree completely.

[BlueNGold]

Eleven, on 14 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

And I just learned that a good friend lost her cousin in this today.  Dammit.

So sorry to hear of her loss.   Prayers for you, her and all at this time.

Edited by BlueNGold, 14 December 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[wyldnwoody44]

weave, on 14 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

No.  No we do not.

I'm guessing that you are not old enough to remember the closing of psychiatric centers like the one that closed in Gowanda in the 80's.  They were not good places, prisons really.  But they were honest attempts at the time to treat mental illness.  There are few places like that anymore.  Mental illness is treated by underpaid and underfunded social workers these days.  Mental health treatment and diagnosis is a joke today.  We as a society would rather blame environmental issues than get serious about folks that seem driven towards acts like what occurred today.

Really there are no words to describe the tragedy today. Gun control is an issue but not one I'm inclined to participate in at this moment. Thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved and touched by this.

As for the mental health facilities closing, I remember Gowanda closing down their facility as well as a place in Forestville, many of those people were let loose on the streets and very few were transferred to buffalo psych center, which is also an very under funded center.

The way society has changed and evolved over the past two decades has led to a huge increase in mental disorders and overall social instability, just social networking alone has been the cause of several tragedies. Evil vs mentally ill can be argued but honestly someone that can do what was done today has to have some sort of mental illness, even if it's not classified as full blown psychosis. I fully agree that the mental health care system is not keeping up and is very under funded and under resourced. It's really a shame

[nfreeman]

What a terrible day.  The worst I can think of since 9/11.  I'm a parent and I'm heartbroken.  I'm also frankly afraid of going to sleep and having nightmares about what it was like in that classroom.

That MF was certainly deranged, but not so much that he didn't realize what he was doing was wrong.  He knew GD well what he was doing.  That's why he killed himself.  And I don't want to hear about video games, ADD or his girlfriend dumping him.  If he was so unhappy he could've done himself in, or maybe just gotten some exercise and gotten the hell over it.  That wasn't enough for him -- he had to do something big so he would be famous.

Here's something that occurred to me:  there are plenty of religious people in this country, and plenty more that believe in God, even if they don't consider themselves "religious."  I'd guess that there's a fair amount of people on this board that fall into those categories.

Leaving aside the question of how God could allow this to happen, I think that a decent percentage of those who believe in God and/or are religious also believe in Satan.  (Not the broader notion of the evil that men are capable of -- the more specific notion of an actual evil being that is engaged in a continuous struggle with God.)  So, what occurred to me is this:  one way to explain today's events is literally that Satan won one of the battles that is part of his eternal war with God.

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's beliefs.  I'm just wondering whether anyone who either has beliefs along these lines or knows something about the theology has any thoughts on this.

Find your loved ones and hold on tight.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

nfreeman, on 15 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

What a terrible day.  The worst I can think of since 9/11.  I'm a parent and I'm heartbroken.  I'm also frankly afraid of going to sleep and having nightmares about what it was like in that classroom.

That MF was certainly deranged, but not so much that he didn't realize what he was doing was wrong.  He knew GD well what he was doing.  That's why he killed himself.  And I don't want to hear about video games, ADD or his girlfriend dumping him.  If he was so unhappy he could've done himself in, or maybe just gotten some exercise and gotten the hell over it.  That wasn't enough for him -- he had to do something big so he would be famous.

Here's something that occurred to me:  there are plenty of religious people in this country, and plenty more that believe in God, even if they don't consider themselves "religious."  I'd guess that there's a fair amount of people on this board that fall into those categories.

Leaving aside the question of how God could allow this to happen, I think that a decent percentage of those who believe in God and/or are religious also believe in Satan.  (Not the broader notion of the evil that men are capable of -- the more specific notion of an actual evil being that is engaged in a continuous struggle with God.)  So, what occurred to me is this:  one way to explain today's events is literally that Satan won one of the battles that is part of his eternal war with God.

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's beliefs.  I'm just wondering whether anyone who either has beliefs along these lines or knows something about the theology has any thoughts on this.

Find your loved ones and hold on tight.

I will attempt to take on your theology issue.

The action itself today was not the work of satan. The millions of tiny actions leading up to and "nurturing" this day to happen is the work of satan.

Matrix31 made a good point.....stop trying to understand....evil is evil. Anyone that can take out innocent little children is beyond gone. There is no need to feel sympathy for the scumbag, but to think that he just well off decided to think it was a good idea to do this is folly. True evil is done every day........it is those with the brains...ability....and power...to manipulate and take advantage of those unkonwing. It happens in multitudes of the hundreds of thousands each day. People are so brainwashed as to their own importance that we see a societal inefficiency take hold because of continued evil. Some people triumph evil deeds while not being evil themselves. Plenty of people live in denial, in grasp of the "just doing my job" paycheck, while supporting evil. This action today is but a blip on the radar of current society. The ability to understand and feel what is truly living is going to be lost on this current generation if it already hasn't been. This technology that dilutes the social process...and the thrill of the media capture of the experience versus the thrill of the experience......it's just a shame.

There are plenty of people that could have carried out today's drastic deeds. They are in need of help, but all too often those people are scorned. There is no need to feel pity on them.....but just the need to understand that today isn't the result of 1 person of major evil........it is the result of millions of instances of slightly measurable denial.....avoidance....badgering.......etc....that leads to the devil himself smiling. The proverbial straw that broke the devil's back so to speak......

Sometimes crazy and horrible situations are brought up upon us as a wakeup call. If you think that today has to do with guns....as much as I love some of you guys who advance this theory, you are nuts. There was a person in China who sliced up 20 kids today with a knife. I am a 6'6" 300lb fella who could probably do a lot of damage with my bare hands if need be...especially on an unsuspecting, innocent target.

People need to reflect every day on what is truly evil and how to prevent it. I am not shocked by today's events. Prepare your hearts for more and more of these tribulations. I paused and shed a tear, but we are headed far deeper than this unless there is a true miracle. The devil didn't shine today.....he's been shining and just used today to take a rest.....