80 replies to this topic

[biodork]

Here we go again...

http://www.todaystmj.../165061026.html

Details still sketchy at this point, but sad this is happening again already.

Edit: Can't figure out how to fix the off-topic tag in the subject line (sorry, mods!).

Edited by SDS, 06 August 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[deluca67]

More lives lost and others destroyed due to another jackass with a gun.

[TrueBluePhD]

More senseless death.  I will say I'm glad the asshat was shot and killed himself; saves the circus of a trial.  I will be interested to see what they find out regarding his motivation though.

[wonderbread]

I decided to start concealed carrying again. If the poop goes down you better be ready.

[biodork]

Yeah it's a little confusing... I heard an audio clip where I thought they said there were 4 gunmen and the other 3 got away, but I have no idea if that's correct or someone misunderstood. I certainly hope it was just the one.

[ThirtyEight]

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I decided to start concealed carrying again. If the poop goes down you better be ready.

Is legal to carry a concealed weapon?

Also, if you are a man, how do you concealed carry?

Edited by ThirtyEight, 05 August 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[wonderbread]

ThirtyEight, on 05 August 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Is legal to carry a concealed weapon?

Also, if you are a man, how do you concealed carry?

In PA it is legal. As far as question 2, are you serious?

[DR HOLLIDAY]

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I decided to start concealed carrying again. If the poop goes down you better be ready.

So more people get shot, probably a few more bystanders and you might get shot by police because they don't know who started what when they get there?  

To protect your house and family I can see the benefit of that.

Edited by DR HOLLIDAY, 05 August 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[ThirtyEight]

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

In PA it is legal. As far as question 2, are you serious?

Well it seems a bit red-neck/gangster to just walk round with a gun stuck into the back of your jeans and it seems a bit professional to walk around with a holster under your suit/on your hip

[TheMatrix31]

ThirtyEight, on 05 August 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Well it seems a bit red-neck/gangster to just walk round with a gun stuck into the back of your jeans and it seems a bit professional to walk around with a holster under your suit/on your hip

Wow.

[ThirtyEight]

TheMatrix31, on 05 August 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Wow.

What?

[Eleven]

biodork, on 05 August 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Here we go again...

http://www.todaystmj.../165061026.html

Details still sketchy at this point, but sad this is happening again already.

Edit: Can't figure out how to fix the off-topic tag in the subject line (sorry, mods!).

Especially senseless given the completely peaceful proclivities of the Sikhs.

DeLuca67, on 05 August 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

More lives lost and others destroyed due to another jackass with a gun.

He needed it to protect himself from one of the following:  (a) an oppressive government, (b) ne'er-do-wells out to get him, or © varmints on his land.  Or he has a small dick.  

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I decided to start concealed carrying again. If the poop goes down you better be ready.

If the poop is about to go down, you're better off with an unconcealed shotgun or an UNCONCEALED handgun, no?  That way, the poop isn't going to go down.  Concealed carry isn't an advantage, it's a disadvantage.  Imagine if you have your "manstick" on a holster.  No one is going to screw with you then, right?

And, even with a shotgun or unconcealed pistol, picture yourself in a theater in Aurora:  It's dark, it's smoky; how do you know whom you're going to hit?!

TheMatrix31, on 05 August 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Wow.

There are a lot of us who don't know how to conceal a handgun, mostly because we realize that they are totally useless in normal situations.  So instead of condescension, people could answer his question.

Edited by Eleven, 05 August 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[SwampD]

Eleven, on 05 August 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Especially senseless given the completely peaceful proclivities of the Sikhs.




He needed it to protect himself from one of the following:  (a) an oppressive government, (b) ne'er-do-wells out to get him, or © varmints on his land.  Or he has a small dick.  



If the poop is about to go down, you're better off with an unconcealed shotgun or an UNCONCEALED handgun, no?  That way, the poop isn't going to go down.  Concealed carry isn't an advantage, it's a disadvantage.  Imagine if you have your "manstick" on a holster.  No one is going to screw with you then, right?

And, even with a shotgun or unconcealed pistol, picture yourself in a theater in Aurora:  It's dark, it's smoky; how do you know whom you're going to hit?!



There are a lot of us who don't know how to conceal a handgun, mostly because we realize that they are totally useless in normal situations.  So instead of condescension, people could answer his question.

We definitely could do with less condescension.  Not everyone who carries a gun is bad or has a small penis.

[ThirtyEight]

Hrm, okay after some very quick internet searches, it seems most guys carry it on their hip in a holster.

Maybe it is just me, but i find it quite disturbing that a portion of the population walk around armed. Especially if alcohol is involved. So obviously most crime happens at night, which in my mind means you are probably either coming home from work or going out for a meal etc. fairly trivial activities where you have your wits about you. However, would be carry a concealed weapon if they were drinking? A lot of crime involves one of the parties being drunk (i.e. stupid or vulnerable), which to me means things could escalate quickly.

Somehow, i feel more okay about a woman carrying a gun in her hand bag jsut because there is that longer time to get to the weapon than i do about someone carrying it on them.

Also on a side note, if i lived in a city/place where i fundamentally felt the only way i could be safe was to carry something designed to kill other human beings then i think i would move.

Is America really this dangerous? That even just walking down the street in a standard city there is the risk of needing to use a firearm?

I'm also slightly confused as to the situation in which it would be used. Obviously there is these recent events where you might have time to pull a gun out and shoot the guy, although if you are carrying i would expect the person to have regular practice on the shooting range, otherwise you are probably as dangerous randomly firing off shots as the guy trying to shoot people.

However, presuming most people carry it not because they are worried they will be in a room that is stormed by a mad man, but for the far more common event of being mugged or beaten up etc. Surely, if you are being mugged and guns are freely available then the mugger probably has a knife or a gun, either way would you have time to grab the gun and fire before they ahd time to shoot/cut you?

I guess i'm just not really sure what event people imagine that having that gun would actually be a benefit to them? Anyone care to explain?

I am not trying to be rude or patronising, and whilst i do not see a need to carry a weapon and so think it is wrong, i am genuinely trying to hear the other side of the argument. The closest thing i have found it people comparing it to how we wear seat belts, but i hope i don;t have to point out that is a moronic analogy

[Eleven]

SwampD, on 05 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

We definitely could do with less condescension.  Not everyone who carries a gun is bad or has a small penis.

I could go with "true, some women carry guns," but that's not going to advance the conversation.

Seriously, I do wonder about the guys who do this sort of thing and their feelings of inadequacy.  Because there's no other plausible explanation for this guy, whose education in psychology basically started and ended with Freud (I do realize that he's out of fashion these days).

In any event...the rest of my post?

ThirtyEight, on 05 August 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Hrm, okay after some very quick internet searches, it seems most guys carry it on their hip in a holster.

Maybe it is just me, but i find it quite disturbing that a portion of the population walk around armed. Especially if alcohol is involved. So obviously most crime happens at night, which in my mind means you are probably either coming home from work or going out for a meal etc. fairly trivial activities where you have your wits about you. However, would be carry a concealed weapon if they were drinking? A lot of crime involves one of the parties being drunk (i.e. stupid or vulnerable), which to me means things could escalate quickly.

Somehow, i feel more okay about a woman carrying a gun in her hand bag jsut because there is that longer time to get to the weapon than i do about someone carrying it on them.

Also on a side note, if i lived in a city/place where i fundamentally felt the only way i could be safe was to carry something designed to kill other human beings then i think i would move.

Is America really this dangerous? That even just walking down the street in a standard city there is the risk of needing to use a firearm?

I'm also slightly confused as to the situation in which it would be used. Obviously there is these recent events where you might have time to pull a gun out and shoot the guy, although if you are carrying i would expect the person to have regular practice on the shooting range, otherwise you are probably as dangerous randomly firing off shots as the guy trying to shoot people.

However, presuming most people carry it not because they are worried they will be in a room that is stormed by a mad man, but for the far more common event of being mugged or beaten up etc. Surely, if you are being mugged and guns are freely available then the mugger probably has a knife or a gun, either way would you have time to grab the gun and fire before they ahd time to shoot/cut you?

I guess i'm just not really sure what event people imagine that having that gun would actually be a benefit to them? Anyone care to explain?

I am not trying to be rude or patronising, and whilst i do not see a need to carry a weapon and so think it is wrong, i am genuinely trying to hear the other side of the argument. The closest thing i have found it people comparing it to how we wear seat belts, but i hope i don;t have to point out that is a moronic analogy

Well said.

And again, to repeat myself from the Aurora thread, I do recognize and respect one's right to carry a firearm in this country.  I just question your perceived need to do so, if it's a handgun not used for sport or any type of assault weapon.

[SwampD]

Eleven, on 05 August 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I could go with "true, some women carry guns," but that's not going to advance the conversation.

Seriously, I do wonder about the guys who do this sort of thing and their feelings of inadequacy.  Because there's no other plausible explanation for this guy, whose education in psychology basically started and ended with Freud (I do realize that he's out of fashion these days).

In any event...the rest of my post?

I just can't get worked up over this topic.  I worry way more about someone on their cell phone or texting while driving than I do a someone carrying a legally concealed handgun,.. or even a crazed arsenal wearin' madman for that matter.  It's the whole baby and bathwater thing.

[wonderbread]

Eleven, on 05 August 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

If the poop is about to go down, you're better off with an unconcealed shotgun or an UNCONCEALED handgun, no?  That way, the poop isn't going to go down.  Concealed carry isn't an advantage, it's a disadvantage.  Imagine if you have your "manstick" on a holster.  No one is going to screw with you then, right?

And, even with a shotgun or unconcealed pistol, picture yourself in a theater in Aurora:  It's dark, it's smoky; how do you know whom you're going to hit?!



There are a lot of us who don't know how to conceal a handgun, mostly because we realize that they are totally useless in normal situations.  So instead of condescension, people could answer his question.

Believe me I'd rather have the option available to me then not.  I understand though it's a personal choice and freedom, one I'd prefer to exercise.

I usually carry above my right butt cheek. I have an invisible holster which conceals nicely. Very rarely do people see the outline and if they do they never say anything, occasionally I'll get a nod.

[Eleven]

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Believe me I'd rather have the option available to me then not.  I understand though it's a personal choice and freedom, one I'd prefer to exercise.

I usually carry above my right butt cheek. I have an invisible holster which conceals nicely. Very rarely do people see the outline and if they do they never say anything, occasionally I'll get a nod.

Does that--pardon the ignorance--mean that unconcealed carry is not a legal option where you are, but concealed is?

I cannot think of anything more ridiculous, but if that's the state of the law, than that "is what it is."

[wonderbread]

Eleven, on 05 August 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Does that--pardon the ignorance--mean that unconcealed carry is not a legal option where you are, but concealed is?

I cannot think of anything more ridiculous, but if that's the state of the law, than that "is what it is."

In Pennsylvania anyone can carry an unconcealed weapon. The weapon must be showing on your person at all times.This is referred to as open carry. You must have a license to conceal. In Philadelphia it is illegal to carry concealed regardless. There you must have a concealed weapons permit and open carry the weapon at all timesl.  Personally, I prefer to conceal carry as opposed to open for the same reason that we are having this conversation. The public masses are scared of guns or uncomfortable around them. I would prefer not to having someone get scared or/ and calling the police for me doing something with in my rights.

My pistol typically stays in the car when I'm working in the office or at meetings. Personally, I carry during the day I find myself in some rougher neighborhoods.  I carry not because I'm insecure but because I value my security.

Edited by wonderbread, 05 August 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I bet you in the town of Pominville.......there are no guns.

Edited by Ghost of Dwight Drane, 05 August 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[wjag]

TrueBluePhD, on 05 August 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

More senseless death.  I will say I'm glad the asshat was shot and killed himself; saves the circus of a trial.  I will be interested to see what they find out regarding his motivation though.

I had a phrase for this type of person.  I came up with it years ago when I was studying comp sci at RIOT...  Self correcting faulty unit..

Edited by wjag, 06 August 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[weave]

Eleven, on 05 August 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Does that--pardon the ignorance--mean that unconcealed carry is not a legal option where you are, but concealed is?

I cannot think of anything more ridiculous, but if that's the state of the law, than that "is what it is."

In NY it is illegal to carry a handgun unconcealed.  It is considered brandishing and will result in your arrest.  Concealed carry only in NY if you have a handgun permit.

This even applies to handguns used for hunting.  Hunting with a handgun requires carry underneath your clothing too, although most DEC officers give hunters a break with it.  Yes, handguns have legit sporting purposes, and no, they aren't sold specifically for hunters with small penises.

SwampD, on 05 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

We definitely could do with less condescension.  Not everyone who carries a gun is bad or has a small penis.

No ######, right?

[deluca67]

SwampD, on 05 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

We definitely could do with less condescension.  Not everyone who carries a gun is bad or has a small penis.

Plus, he could have easily walked into that temple with a sponge and a bag of chips and killed those people. What are we going to do,  outlaw potato chips and sponges.

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

In Pennsylvania anyone can carry an unconcealed weapon. The weapon must be showing on your person at all times.This is referred to as open carry. You must have a license to conceal. In Philadelphia it is illegal to carry concealed regardless. There you must have a concealed weapons permit and open carry the weapon at all timesl.  Personally, I prefer to conceal carry as opposed to open for the same reason that we are having this conversation. The public masses are scared of guns or uncomfortable around them. I would prefer not to having someone get scared or/ and calling the police for me doing something with in my rights.

My pistol typically stays in the car when I'm working in the office or at meetings. Personally, I carry during the day I find myself in some rougher neighborhoods. I carry not because I'm insecure but because I value my security.

Have you ever pointed the gun at a human being? Every shot a human being. Cowboy bravado aside, it's one thing to say what you would do in that situation and quite another to actual pull the trigger with the intent to kill another human being.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Ghost of Dwight Drane, on 05 August 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

I bet you in the town of Pominville.......there are no guns.

Considering that he is from Quebec, probably not hand guns, but a lot of hunting rifles for sure.

[MichFan]

There is no amount of gun control regulations that could prevent this event or the Aurora event.  When someone has their mind set on doing something like this, they are going to find a way.  If passing more laws that won't get enforced makes you feel better, so be it, but you won't be solving the problem.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

MichFan, on 06 August 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

There is no amount of gun control regulations that could prevent this event or the Aurora event.  When someone has their mind set on doing something like this, they are going to find a way.  If passing more laws that won't get enforced makes you feel better, so be it, but you won't be solving the problem.

Its sad but true, when some maniac gets to that point they don't care if they are killed during the incident and obviously they don't care if they end up in jail either.

[dEnnis the Menace]

MichFan, on 06 August 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

There is no amount of gun control regulations that could prevent this event or the Aurora event.  When someone has their mind set on doing something like this, they are going to find a way.  If passing more laws that won't get enforced makes you feel better, so be it, but you won't be solving the problem.

It's called escalation.  Even if you do get better enforcement, the criminal is going to find a way to complete what he has deemed as his mission.  Instead of guns, they turn to other, worse means.

I believe that any good law abiding citizen that wants to carry a gun for safety should be allowed  to with the proper background checks and possibly even a psych evaluation.  A couple I know had someone brandish a knife on them one night up in 'Cuse.  The guy told the man he was reaching for his wallet to give him what he asked for, and instead pulled out his handgun which was holstered on his hip under his shirt (he never tucks his shirts in, ever, and you can never tell he's carrying either).  Guy dropped the knife, incident over.  In my opinion, there might not ever be the need, but there may be the one time where you really do need it.  I'd rather have the upper hand, and be able to protect myself or my girl, or if I had kids, them.

[d4rksabre]

wonderbread, on 05 August 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

In Pennsylvania anyone can carry an unconcealed weapon. The weapon must be showing on your person at all times.This is referred to as open carry. You must have a license to conceal. In Philadelphia it is illegal to carry concealed regardless. There you must have a concealed weapons permit and open carry the weapon at all timesl.  Personally, I prefer to conceal carry as opposed to open for the same reason that we are having this conversation. The public masses are scared of guns or uncomfortable around them. I would prefer not to having someone get scared or/ and calling the police for me doing something with in my rights.

My pistol typically stays in the car when I'm working in the office or at meetings. Personally, I carry during the day I find myself in some rougher neighborhoods.  I carry not because I'm insecure but because I value my security.

You leave a handgun, unmonitored, in a car? That's insanity. You know where most gun crime starts? With stolen guns. Keep it on your person or leave it in the safe at home.

[SwampD]

dEnnis the Menace, on 06 August 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

It's called escalation.  Even if you do get better enforcement, the criminal is going to find a way to complete what he has deemed as his mission.  Instead of guns, they turn to other, worse means.

I believe that any good law abiding citizen that wants to carry a gun for safety should be allowed  to with the proper background checks and possibly even a psych evaluation.  A couple I know had someone brandish a knife on them one night up in 'Cuse.  The guy told the man he was reaching for his wallet to give him what he asked for, and instead pulled out his handgun which was holstered on his hip under his shirt (he never tucks his shirts in, ever, and you can never tell he's carrying either).  Guy dropped the knife, incident over.  In my opinion, there might not ever be the need, but there may be the one time where you really do need it.  I'd rather have the upper hand, and be able to protect myself or my girl, or if I had kids, them.

That's fine, but couldn't the guy have just thrown a sponge or a bag of chips at the knifeman?  He must have a small penis.

[dEnnis the Menace]

d4rksabre, on 06 August 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

You leave a handgun, unmonitored, in a car? That's insanity. You know where most gun crime starts? With stolen guns. Keep it on your person or leave it in the safe at home.

^this.  When my permit goes thru, I'll be getting a safe specifically to keep my gun(s) in when not being carried.  (although in Tompkins county, I can't get concealed carry, only hunting and target shooting restrictions ...)

SwampD, on 06 August 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

That's fine, but couldn't the guy have just thrown a sponge or a bag of chips at the knifeman?  He must have a small penis.

[Campy]

MichFan, on 06 August 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

There is no amount of gun control regulations that could prevent this event or the Aurora event.  When someone has their mind set on doing something like this, they are going to find a way.  If passing more laws that won't get enforced makes you feel better, so be it, but you won't be solving the problem.

Not allowing the easily-enforceable ban on assault rifles to expire probably wouldn't have prevented Aurora from happening, but it may very well have minimized the resulting carnage.

[shrader]

dEnnis the Menace, on 06 August 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

It's called escalation.  Even if you do get better enforcement, the criminal is going to find a way to complete what he has deemed as his mission.  Instead of guns, they turn to other, worse means..

-Escalation?
-We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds, and *you're* wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops. take this guy: armed robbery, double homicide. Got a taste for the theatrical, like you. Leaves a calling card.

weave, on 06 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

In NY it is illegal to carry a handgun unconcealed.  It is considered brandishing and will result in your arrest.  Concealed carry only in NY if you have a handgun permit.

This even applies to handguns used for hunting.  Hunting with a handgun requires carry underneath your clothing too, although most DEC officers give hunters a break with it.  Yes, handguns have legit sporting purposes, and no, they aren't sold specifically for hunters with small penises.

Just out of curiosity, what do they wind up hunting with hand guns, smaller birds or something along those lines?

[wjag]

shrader, on 06 August 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what do they wind up hunting with hand guns, smaller birds or something along those lines?

Seem pretty effective against Zombies...  And if you have seen the new movie "The Watch", Aliens too...

[dEnnis the Menace]

shrader, on 06 August 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

-Escalation?
-We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds, and *you're* wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops. take this guy: armed robbery, double homicide. Got a taste for the theatrical, like you. Leaves a calling card.



Just out of curiosity, what do they wind up hunting with hand guns, smaller birds or something along those lines?

1) The Batman quote popped into my head as I was typing that, I knew someone would reference it lol

2) A lot of people carry large caliber handguns for hunting trips where they may encounter dangerous game (i.e. Bears, Mountain Lions, etc).  My cousin carries a .44 with him in the Adirondacks last I knew.  Otherwise, I have no clue.

[K-9]

Would people be ok if someone with long, unkempt hair, dressed in T-shirt, cut-offs, and sandals walked into a movie theater or any other crowded public venue with a legally acquired, licensed, and permitted Glock holstered to his right hip? Or how about a small group of friends strolling into the McDonald's wearing their sidearms?

[weave]

shrader, on 06 August 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what do they wind up hunting with hand guns, smaller birds or something along those lines?

I've taken more deer than I can remember with a handgun.  If I ever get to Maine on a hunting trip I will try for a moose with one.  No, it isn't a foolish trick, there are plenty of reasonable handguns with enough oomph to do the job if you are well practiced in pointing it properly and know the anatomy of the game you are after.

[shrader]

weave, on 06 August 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I've taken more deer than I can remember with a handgun.  If I ever get to Maine on a hunting trip I will try for a moose with one.  No, it isn't a foolish trick, there are plenty of reasonable handguns with enough oomph to do the job if you are well practiced in pointing it properly and know the anatomy of the game you are after.

I picture most people winding up with a pissed off deer or moose.  And speaking of moose, I've been driving through NH a lot lately and I'm still waiting to spot one (not in the middle of the road hopefully).

[weave]

shrader, on 06 August 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

I picture most people winding up with a pissed off deer or moose.  And speaking of moose, I've been driving through NH a lot lately and I'm still waiting to spot one (not in the middle of the road hopefully).

If you think about it, an average sized male deer is about the same size/weight as an average sized male human, maybe a bit smaller.  If a handgun can kill a man, it can kill a deer.  Having said that, and without getting too in depth, there is less margin for error with a handgun (compared to a rifle or shotgun), even the most powerful do not have the energy levels that even mild rifles have.

[DontPatTheGerbe]

wjag, on 06 August 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Seem pretty effective against Zombies...  And if you have seen the new movie "The Watch", Aliens too...

You watch too much TV / Walking Dead.  Pistol is one of the worst weapons for killing zombies as you need a perfect shot in order to do enough damage to the correct portion of the brain / spinal column and stop their advance.




Duh...

Edited by DontPatTheGerbe, 06 August 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[shrader]

weave, on 06 August 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

If you think about it, an average sized male deer is about the same size/weight as an average sized male human, maybe a bit smaller.  If a handgun can kill a man, it can kill a deer.  Having said that, and without getting too in depth, there is less margin for error with a handgun (compared to a rifle or shotgun), even the most powerful do not have the energy levels that even mild rifles have.

But just like with a human, only the best placed shot is going to kill it right away.  It (deer or human) might not be moving around so well after being shot, but both sure as hell are pissed.

I'd definitely be more curious as to how that would work with a moose if you ever make that trip.  I bet they're trouble when they're pissed.

I guess the big question is just how many awful shots are there out there.