168 replies to this topic

[sabills]

Sabres have made their proposal for the so called 'Webster Block', AKA the parking lot in front of the FN Center.

http://www.buffalone... proposal (pdf)

They're up against Carl Paladino, who also made a bid on the project. Here's his design.

Edited by SDS, 06 August 2012 - 08:03 AM.

[Vanek-Man]

wow.

[Falstaff]

I like the Pegula idea in that it makes that facility an ideal host for youth hockey tournaments which bring in people which bring in money, yadda yadda yadda. It also maintains more public access to the area and creates a bit more of a destination than the Paladino proposal though the indoor and outdoor rinks in the same space will compete with each other some

[Spndnchz]

Those apartments should have a great view of the skyway.

[wjag]

spndnchz, on 27 July 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Those apartments should have a great view of the skyway.

Yeah, it's conveniently missing from that artist rendering...

[sabres13]

WOW that center would be Awesome!!! IF it gets built i can drink at the game and have a place to stay at night.

Also this would generate business and familys to move to Buffalo. In turn maybe lure some potential FA.

[IKnowPhysics]

Love the Sabres' proposal.   Total investment at 65% of what it cost to build FNC (in 2012 dollars).

I think Paladino's facade choices match the neighborhood better, but they also feel less distinctive than the Sabres' proposal.

sabres13, on 27 July 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Also this would generate business and familys to move to Buffalo. In turn maybe lure some potential FA.

And yes, as a recreational hockey player who's open to moving back to the Buffalo area, the prospect of a new double sheet downtown only makes me want move there more.

[Falstaff]

Another side note would be that the Sabres proposal might be a boost to the high end real estate market downtown as well.  The Sabres would likely move practices there and the players would have more of an incentive to live close to work.  It doesn't sound like a big deal but 25 high rollers moving downtown en masse would certainly be noticed by the market.  What the next proposal needs to be is to turn the top floors of the HSBC tower into condos.  Those would have some IMPRESSIVE views and would fetch big coin - even in Buffalo.

IKnowPhysics, on 27 July 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I think Paladino's facade choices match the neighborhood better, but they also feel less distinctive than the Sabres' proposal.

Matching the neighborhood is a double edged sword - you don't want it to look like a suburban office park and I think the Paladino building too closely mirrors the new Donovan building.  Look around a downtown - the good ones don't have tons of cookie cutter buildings.

wjag, on 27 July 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah, it's conveniently missing from that artist rendering...

The building will be there longer than the bridge - gotta think forward.  Good point though.

Let's hope they do the Ohio St. refurb well and soon - that will facilitate removal of that monstrosity.  Also - leave the lift bridge, it's cool and it matches the historic vibe we're all going for.  Once that is done we can start pushing for the tunnel (with light rail extension) under the harbor (too many logistical problems with building a low bridge across a navigation route in the spot we want it)

[Potato]

I'm a little hazy on my Buffalo geography, but this would be across Scott St. from the new Courtyard Marriott that is going in?

[Falstaff]

COSabre, on 27 July 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'm a little hazy on my Buffalo geography, but this would be across Scott St. from the new Courtyard Marriott that is going in?

Yes - where the parking lot across from the HSBC Atrium building is.

http://www.buffalori...5x330-12556.jpg

[Robviously]

spndnchz, on 27 July 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Those apartments should have a great view of the skyway.

If Buffalo ever wants to have a really great waterfront, the Skyway is going to have to come down.

Both concepts look great.  I like the Sabres' better because it's a little more distinct and because I have more faith in Pegula than I do in Carl Paladino.  Hopefully we get this done quickly; it'll be great for Buffalo and even better when we're hosting March Madness or (hopefully) another World Juniors.

Side note: This was also going to be the location of the doomed Adelphia Tower, right?

[LabattBlue]

Robviously, on 27 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

If Buffalo ever wants to have a really great waterfront, the Skyway is going to have to come down.

Both concepts look great.  I like the Sabres' better because it's a little more distinct and because I have more faith in Pegula than I do in Carl Paladino.  Hopefully we get this done quickly; it'll be great for Buffalo and even better when we're hosting March Madness or (hopefully) another World Juniors.

Side note: This was also going to be the location of the doomed Adelphia Tower, right?

Knowing the city can never get out of its own way, I am convinced they will choose Crazy Carl, Pegula becomes pissed off, and shys away from any future waterfront opportunites.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

LabattBlue, on 27 July 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Knowing the city can never get out of its own way, I am convinced they will choose Crazy Carl, Pegula becomes pissed off, and shys away from any future waterfront opportunites.

How's Larry Quinn doing?

I'm sure a few people will walk away with envelopes as they run up Uncle Terry.

[MattPie]

Ghost of Dwight Drane, on 27 July 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

How's Larry Quinn doing?

I'm sure a few people will walk away with envelopes as they run up Uncle Terry.

Sigh, I won't even bother to ask if you have some proof of bribery.

[Suffer_enuff]

Robviously, on 27 July 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

If Buffalo ever wants to have a really great waterfront, the Skyway is going to have to come down.

Both concepts look great.  I like the Sabres' better because it's a little more distinct and because I have more faith in Pegula than I do in Carl Paladino.  Hopefully we get this done quickly; it'll be great for Buffalo and even better when we're hosting March Madness or (hopefully) another World Juniors.

Side note: This was also going to be the location of the doomed Adelphia Tower, right?

Actually, the Skyway is bad enough, but then you have the Marine Drive Apartments - those are ugly buildings and they block the view of the Inner Harbor at least as much as, if not more than the Skyway does.  In a perfect world, both of these would be gone. Knowing Buffalo, we'll be seeing them for years to come.

Both Webster Block proposals look good - if I had to choose, I'd go with the twin ice rinks.  Knowing that available ice time around Buffalo is always in short supply, putting these in would guarantee increased activity at the foot of Main Street. But whichever one is chosen, PLEASE actually build the thing!  We've had too many years of having our hopes raised, only to be dashed upon the rocks of local politics.

[LabattBlue]

Sabre Dance, on 30 July 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Actually, the Skyway is bad enough, but then you have the Marine Drive Apartments - those are ugly buildings and they block the view of the Inner Harbor at least as much as, if not more than the Skyway does.  In a perfect world, both of these would be gone. Knowing Buffalo, we'll be seeing them for years to come.

Both Webster Block proposals look good - if I had to choose, I'd go with the twin ice rinks.  Knowing that available ice time around Buffalo is always in short supply, putting these in would guarantee increased activity at the foot of Main Street. But whichever one is chosen, PLEASE actually build the thing!  We've had too many years of having our hopes raised, only to be dashed upon the rocks of local politics.

Having subsidized housing on the waterfront(Marine Drive Apartments) is way worse than the skyway.

The skyway...I know it is a longer route to downtown without it, but there is plenty of access to the 90 from Hamburg and points south.  If you really want that straight shot, take Rte. 5 in, and then hop on Ohio St. to downtown.  The more that gets developed underneath and around the skyway, the less likely it is ever to come down.

[TrueBluePhD]

Sabre Dance, on 30 July 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Actually, the Skyway is bad enough, but then you have the Marine Drive Apartments - those are ugly buildings and they block the view of the Inner Harbor at least as much as, if not more than the Skyway does.  In a perfect world, both of these would be gone. Knowing Buffalo, we'll be seeing them for years to come.

Both Webster Block proposals look good - if I had to choose, I'd go with the twin ice rinks.  Knowing that available ice time around Buffalo is always in short supply, putting these in would guarantee increased activity at the foot of Main Street. But whichever one is chosen, PLEASE actually build the thing!  We've had too many years of having our hopes raised, only to be dashed upon the rocks of local politics.

I agree that both projects look good, but I'd go for the Sabres proposal for a few reasons.  

1)  It's actually a unique destination and a reason to go into the city.  As somebody who has lived in the suburbs for my entire life, I rarely have a reason to go into the city.  Give me one, and I will!  More office space and apartments that I can't afford aren't going to get me there.

2)  Does the city really need more office space?  Seriously, especially with HSBC moving out, I can't imagine a reason why we need to pour tens of millions into new office space when the city can't fill the space it currently has.

3)  If the Sabres get the bid, I have faith it will actually get done.  Maybe it's blind faith in Pegula, but I think he's demonstrated that when he gets involved, things get done.  Paladino sometimes gets things done, but he also has other properties with which he's done the equivalent of nothing.  

In sum I think the Sabres' proposal gives people a reason to go into the city who otherwise wouldn't, and it's just a really cool concept, whereas the Paladino proposal strikes me as more of the same, only newer.  What does this mean?  The visionaries in city hall will crunch the numbers, see the Paladino proposal is cheaper, and go with it

[Suffer_enuff]

LabattBlue, on 30 July 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Having subsidized housing on the waterfront(Marine Drive Apartments) is way worse than the skyway.

The skyway...I know it is a longer route to downtown without it, but there is plenty of access to the 90 from Hamburg and points south.  If you really want that straight shot, take Rte. 5 in, and then hop on Ohio St. to downtown.  The more that gets developed underneath and around the skyway, the less likely it is ever to come down.

Ohio Street to Michigan Ave. is (to me) preferable to the Skyway.  Nothing worse than perking along at 55 MPH and then hitting the traffic signal at the foot of the Skyway.  I only use the Skyway when I want to stop at Starbucks on Delaware on the way into work (which lately hasn't been very often at all).

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

MattPie, on 30 July 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Sigh, I won't even bother to ask if you have some proof of bribery.

I'm just laughing at the setup. Quinn is partners with Paladino on many projects. Quinn hired 90% of the people working inside of the arena who are putting the proposal together with the Sabres. The city is the city and wouldn't close an open window in the middle of January if they found it.

All those expecting a 100% perfectly legit and efficient process....please raise your hands.

[ROC Sabres]

I really wonder if the designer of that was having an off day when he labeled the facility.  Labeling the restrooms "toilets" is a little amateur to me.

[sizzlemeister]

I actually don't have a problem with the Skyway aesthetically.  It has, perhaps, the best view of the area outside of getting into one of the taller buildings.  When I was a reporter, I saw the proposal to replace the Skyway with a tunnel...a particularly ambitious project and very costly.  I would rather that money go towards developing/cleaning up near by areas.

[That Aud Smell]

sizzlemeister, on 31 July 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I actually don't have a problem with the Skyway aesthetically.  It has, perhaps, the best view of the area outside of getting into one of the taller buildings.  When I was a reporter, I saw the proposal to replace the Skyway with a tunnel...a particularly ambitious project and very costly.  I would rather that money go towards developing/cleaning up near by areas.

i've sort of given up on my anti-skyway credentials. i am more a fan of the mantra "lighter, quicker, cheaper" (or whatever it is) that is now guiding canalside development. removing and replacing the skyway would be a massive undertaking -- better to use that money elsewhere. the turning point for me was going to the concerts at canalside; when the sun is setting, the harbor is behind you, the band you like is on stage, and you're feeling a pleasant blue light buzz, the skyway just ... blends innocuously into the background. it's not the obstacle to development and beautification that i once imagined/assumed it to be.

[MattPie]

sizzlemeister, on 31 July 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I actually don't have a problem with the Skyway aesthetically.  It has, perhaps, the best view of the area outside of getting into one of the taller buildings.  When I was a reporter, I saw the proposal to replace the Skyway with a tunnel...a particularly ambitious project and very costly.  I would rather that money go towards developing/cleaning up near by areas.

It's probably be easier to put in a new highway from Smith St (give or take) and connect down past Tift. Looking at the satellite map, there doesn't seem to be a ton of stuff in the way.

[weave]

That Aud Smell, on 31 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

i've sort of given up on my anti-skyway credentials. i am more a fan of the mantra "lighter, quicker, cheaper" (or whatever it is) that is now guiding canalside development. removing and replacing the skyway would be a massive undertaking -- better to use that money elsewhere. the turning point for me was going to the concerts at canalside; when the sun is setting, the harbor is behind you, the band you like is on stage, and you're feeling a pleasant blue light buzz, the skyway just ... blends innocuously into the background. it's not the obstacle to development and beautification that i once imagined/assumed it to be.

It is kind of weird seeing a semi barreling down the skyway as the band plays on stage though.

[That Aud Smell]

weave, on 31 July 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

It is kind of weird seeing a semi barreling down the skyway as the band plays on stage though.

i hear you. it has also crossed my mind, from time to time, that the reportedly higher relative incidence of accidents on that elevated expressway has the potential to affect/impact the environs below.

[sabills]

I'm slowly getting used to the skyway. It isn't as bad as I once thought it was, and it somehow gives it a distinct urban feel when I'm down at the harbor. We'll see if I still think that when canalside is completed, though.

Edited by sabills, 31 July 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[JJFIVEOH]

What exactly is Paladino's proposal?

[Spndnchz]

JJFIVEOH, on 31 July 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

What exactly is Paladino's proposal?

See the link in the first post.

Basically more offices, no rinks.

[JJFIVEOH]

spndnchz, on 31 July 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

See the link in the first post.

Basically more offices, no rinks.

Just wondering if there was more details. But that sums it up enough for me.

The artist's rendition makes it look like it would be between Perry and South Park west of Michigan Ave. But it says the parking lot on the corner of Scott and Main. That lot doesn't look real big.

Edited by JJFIVEOH, 31 July 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Spndnchz]

JJFIVEOH, on 31 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Just wondering if there was more details. But that sums it up enough for me.

The artist's rendition makes it look like it would be between Perry and South Park west of Michigan Ave. But it says the parking lot on the corner of Scott and Main. That lot doesn't look real big.

Paladino

TPegs

[JJFIVEOH]

spndnchz, on 31 July 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Paladino

TPegs

Thanks!

[JJFIVEOH]

The Paladino presentation is a much more professional and detailed proposal. I like how they went more in-depth on the hotel plans and the overall impact it would have on the immediate area. However I think Pegula's plan is much more applicable to the theme of the area. Seems to be more multi-purpose. I would think there is plenty of office space downtown where Paladino's proposal would have any impact. Although the apartments would be pretty cool.

[I am Marcellus]

wjag, on 27 July 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah, it's conveniently missing from that artist rendering...

The artist's rendering could have been taken from the west shoulder of the Skyway, for those who know?

From recent memory, the rendering is accurate, driving into the city from the south.

Edited by Yuri Olesha, 31 July 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[JJFIVEOH]

Yup, you're right. From the rendition it looks like it's depicting the facade of the arena. But now that my memory (and Google Earth ) kicked in it could also be the side.

[Robviously]

That Aud Smell, on 31 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

i've sort of given up on my anti-skyway credentials. i am more a fan of the mantra "lighter, quicker, cheaper" (or whatever it is) that is now guiding canalside development. removing and replacing the skyway would be a massive undertaking -- better to use that money elsewhere. the turning point for me was going to the concerts at canalside; when the sun is setting, the harbor is behind you, the band you like is on stage, and you're feeling a pleasant blue light buzz, the skyway just ... blends innocuously into the background. it's not the obstacle to development and beautification that i once imagined/assumed it to be.

So basically if you're watching a concert, surrounded by thousands of people, and possibly a little buzzed, you don't notice the Skyway as much.  What about the other 99% of the time when its a horrible eyesore?  This is sorta like saying the Sabres shouldn't make improvements around the Arena because if the game is really good, you don't think about the arena so much.

It's obtrusive and doesn't fit any of the new development in the area.  The artist renderings that are honest enough to actually show the Skyway cutting through all the new buildings look awful.  If we ever want the waterfront to look beautiful -- not just OK, but beautiful -- that thing has to go.  And we don't need to replace it.  Traffic isn't a big issue in Buffalo.

BTW, in other good news for the region, 60 and 61 story towers proposed for Niagara Falls, ON:
http://www.buffalone...ticle975904.ece

[IKnowPhysics]

So here's the breakdown:

Sabres investment: $123 million
Paladino investment: $64 million

Sabres hotel rooms: 200
Paladio hotel rooms: 140

Sabres retail space: 15900
Paladino retail space: 8600+some in the hotel

Sabres parking spaces: 965
Paladino parking spaces: 1089

Sabres others:
Double ice rink on 7th floor (110,000 sqft)
Fitness center (12,000 sqft)

Paladino others:
110,000 square feet of office space
42 luxury apartments (1200-3000 sq ft each)

Sabres timeline: Ice open Sepetember '14, Hotel open May '15.
Paladino timeline: Open December '14.

Opinion:
Sabres win hands down.  They're investing twice as much.  Their ice rinks will create jobs and bring in tourism dollars.  Their space is soo much more public-use oriented (more retail space, ice rink space, fitness center) than the other plan, which is really important in that location.  It enhances the notion of hockey heaven by building a new regional destination and the services to support it.  It looks like Pegula is building for the people (ice rinks, retail space) and Paladino is building for wealthy private use (office and luxury apartment space).

I think it's more useful to the city to create something new and publicly accessible in that space, be it ice rinks or a different attraction, instead of constructing new office space or apartment space when there's plenty of other nearby buildings that can be renovated into great office space and apartment space (for cheaper!).

[TrueBluePhD]

IKnowPhysics, on 31 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Opinion:
Sabres win hands down.  They're investing twice as much.  Their ice rinks will create jobs and bring in tourism dollars.  Their space is soo much more public-use oriented (more retail space, ice rink space, fitness center) than the other plan, which is really important in that location.  It enhances the notion of hockey heaven by building a new regional destination and the services to support it.  It looks like Pegula is building for the people (ice rinks, retail space) and Paladino is building for wealthy private use (office and luxury apartment space).

I think it's more useful to the city to create something new and publicly accessible in that space, be it ice rinks or a different attraction, instead of constructing new office space or apartment space when there's plenty of other nearby buildings that can be renovated into great office space and apartment space (for cheaper!).

I completely agree with your assessment....which is why I remain as pessimistic as ever, and expect Paladino to get the bid.  I have zero faith in this city's leadership to actually do something which requires vision for the future.

[Robviously]

IKnowPhysics, on 31 July 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Opinion: Sabres win hands down. They're investing twice as much. Their ice rinks will create jobs and bring in tourism dollars. Their space is soo much more public-use oriented (more retail space, ice rink space, fitness center) than the other plan, which is really important in that location. It enhances the notion of hockey heaven by building a new regional destination and the services to support it. It looks like Pegula is building for the people (ice rinks, retail space) and Paladino is building for wealthy private use (office and luxury apartment space). I think it's more useful to the city to create something new and publicly accessible in that space, be it ice rinks or a different attraction, instead of constructing new office space or apartment space when there's plenty of other nearby buildings that can be renovated into great office space and apartment space (for cheaper!).

TrueBluePhD, on 31 July 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I completely agree with your assessment....which is why I remain as pessimistic as ever, and expect Paladino to get the bid. I have zero faith in this city's leadership to actually do something which requires vision for the future.

Agree with both of you guys on everything here.

[Spndnchz]

Remember this is taxpayer land. Public use is what we're looking for.

[Robviously]

spndnchz, on 31 July 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Remember this is taxpayer land. Public use is what we're looking for.

It'd be really nice if we lived in a world where government officials thought primarily of taxpayer interests when they made decisions.  Sort of a crazy notion at this point though.