2438 replies to this topic

[Spndnchz]

NHL bait and switch. The players need to disclaim. Just do it.

[Eleven]

Sabres Fan In NS, on 03 January 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Thanks, 11.

What did I ask you about legal mumbo-jumbo and 25 words last time you posted something like this ... .

Interesting ... on the bottom of page 6 of 22 (note 1) it seems that these NHLPA lawyers do not represent a handful of players.

11,

Could you comment on that note for me.  That, certainly, should not take many words.  And, remember, no mumbo-jumbo, please.  Thanks.

=====

EDIT:  New thought ...


Meet the new boss, same as the old boss ... sort of ...

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...ry-bettman.html

This guy will probably vote to settle right now based on what happened after the 1995 lockout was settled.

On the original thought, and NFW is it in 25 or less:  A plaintiff has to serve a defendant.  Normally, this means that you hire a process server to show up at a person's place of business, or home, or whatever, and that process server personally hands him/her the summons and complaint.  (Together, the summons and complaint are referred to as "process," much like cheese is in your home country.  Except it's a short O.)  When the defendant is a corporation, which is not the case in the NHL's suit, there are more options.  But the principle is important:  Due process mandates that a person who is sued, KNOWS that he or she is sued.  That's why there are these requirements.

But here's what happened in this case:  Often, when the plaintiff's lawyer knows that the defendant has a lawyer, the plaintiff's lawyer sends a letter, or, more often now, an email, saying, "hey, I sued your client.  Here's the summons and complaint.  Will you accept service?"  The defendant's lawyer can say yes or no, but needs the client's permission to say yes.  Otherwise, it's up to the plaintiff's lawyer to effect (yep, that's a verb in this context) service upon the defendant personally.  Very, very often, we just accept service.  It makes it simpler, and the client can hear from friendly ears that a suit was filed.  And it keeps up comity among the bar, and in a small city like Buffalo, we deal with each other pretty often.  Also, when you agree to do that, you usually can get an extra week or two out of the plaintiff's attorney to answer or move against the complaint; there are time constraints on all of that stuff, and sometimes, being nice means you get some extra time.  (You'll notice that the players moved against the complaint and did not answer it; that was the brief that I uploaded earlier.)

What likely happened here (and this really is a guess) is that the defense team couldn't get in touch with certain players, and therefore wasn't authorized to accept service on behalf of them.  So they were excepted from the motion to dismiss.  I doubt that the players in question said "hey, no, make them come to my house with a summons and complaint."  Well, except Marty; he was probably looking for someone to talk to/at.

wjag, on 03 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Remember they get paid by the second...

I wish.

Edited by Eleven, 03 January 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[Eleven]

I've now read the brief.  I've seen student briefs that were written in a more convincing fashion.  Wow, that was a mess.  It might work--the players might be right on the law--but wow.

EDIT:  Respectfully, I also should say this:  (1) it's very tough to get a motion to dismiss granted in federal court even on the best facts, and (2) it's very tough to write a good brief when the facts are undesirable. But all of that stated, well, there were good arguments to be made (especially the "is this a real 'case or controversy'" argument), and they were not made well.  One of the players' law firms is nationally known (hint, it isn't Steve Fehr's firm), and it had plenty of time to put together a better brief than that.

Edited by Eleven, 03 January 2013 - 09:28 PM.

[RCentered]

The NHL decided to individually list 35 players (http://dockets.justi...cv09133/405307/), the PA replied that they couldn't find 9 of them.  My theory is that the 35 were chosen based upon who the NHL thought would sue them individually.  If that time comes, the NHL wanted to be able to say 'Why were you, Mr Biron, represented by the PA then to accept service for you, but not now?'  The PA saw this coming, and claimed that Mr Biron and the other 8 who will be suing were not represented by the PA enough for the PA to accept service for any of them.  Biron and Dubinsky are Ranger reps, or were at one point anyway, I think that the PA could get in touch if they wanted to.

It's just a theory.

[Spndnchz]

Good stuff by Elliott Friedman.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...iting-game.html

[shrader]

RCentered, on 03 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

The NHL decided to individually list 35 players (http://dockets.justi...cv09133/405307/), the PA replied that they couldn't find 9 of them.  My theory is that the 35 were chosen based upon who the NHL thought would sue them individually.  If that time comes, the NHL wanted to be able to say 'Why were you, Mr Biron, represented by the PA then to accept service for you, but not now?'  The PA saw this coming, and claimed that Mr Biron and the other 8 who will be suing were not represented by the PA enough for the PA to accept service for any of them.  Biron and Dubinsky are Ranger reps, or were at one point anyway, I think that the PA could get in touch if they wanted to.

It's just a theory.

That list of players is mostly the PAs negotiating committee, with a few extra names sprinkled in.

edit: Unless those few extra names have been added to the committee since I last saw its roster.

Edited by shrader, 04 January 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[LGR4GM]

Spndnchz, on 04 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Good stuff by Elliott Friedman.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...iting-game.html

I really liked that article.  It kind of encapsulated my thoughts.  If they are so close (which they really are) posturing for another week (which is what they seem to be doing) is just making me angrier.  I am already pissed that Bettman came out way back in December and was all like grr death blah after player owner meetings and then he basically came back with a deal that was again what we all kinda figured the CBA would be like in the end.  Of course on the other side Fehr's games are not much better.  It has just been one big cluster and another week of cluster fu****g helps no one.  I will remember this lockout forever and I blame no fan who went through the 04-05 lockout and then this and now is done with the sport.  They lockout again after this CBA, not sure how I will react but my apathy for the sport is currently at an all time high and I am not sure I would go through that again.

[Eleven]

shrader, on 04 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

That list of players is mostly the PAs negotiating committee, with a few extra names sprinkled in.

edit: Unless those few extra names have been added to the committee since I last saw its roster.

It's a few extra names so that there is a putative representative among the defendants for every type of player, e.g., drafted but unsigned, etc.  Those names were chosen carefully.  You'll notice that, in quite a few instances, they either live in NY or play for a NY team, too.

[Spndnchz]

Eleven, on 04 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

It's a few extra names so that there is a putative representative among the defendants for every type of player, e.g., drafted but unsigned, etc.  Those names were chosen carefully.  You'll notice that, in quite a few instances, they either live in NY or play for a NY team, too.

Trying to get a more favorable court to take the case?

[Eleven]

Spndnchz, on 04 January 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Trying to get a more favorable court to take the case?

There are two factors at play:  one is to establish as many contacts with New York as possible so that it appears to be a convenient and appropriate forum (shouldn't really be an issue), and the other is to make sure that all player "situations" are covered.  So, while the vast majority of players named as defendants are NHLPA committee members who are under contract with a team, let's call that the "normal" situation, there are a few named who are not in the normal situation.

Michael Del Zotto, a New York resident, who is an RFA, did not receive an offer sheet, but not under contract with any team.

Mark Eaton, a New York resident, who is a UFA not under contract with any team.

Ryan McDonagh, a New York resident, under contract with the Rangers but also under contract with a KHL team.

Cristobal Nieves, a New York resident, drafted by the Rangers in 2012 but not under contract (unsigned draft choice).

Shane Prince, a New York resident, drafted by Ottawa in 2012 and signed, but never has played an NHL game.

I think every other defendant is a member of the committee.  See how the league covered all the bases and did it with guys from NYS?

[shrader]

Thanks 11.  Very clear trend there.

[Spndnchz]

Some of the hubbub on the HRR arguments:

Bettman attempted to get just himself as the deciding individual for all pealties related to HRR reporting.

And on possibly why the NHL has upped the buyout to 2 players:

Bettman claims a number of GM's have told him they would like to "dismantle" their teams to meet the new cap, saying they regret some of the contracts they've handed out.

[nobody]

Spndnchz, on 04 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Bettman claims a number of GM's have told him they would like to "dismantle" their teams to meet the new cap, saying they regret some of the contracts they've handed out.

A lot of fans would like to dismantle the teams that some of these GMs created with those contracts also.  

[Suffer_enuff]

Spndnchz, on 04 January 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Good stuff by Elliott Friedman.

http://www.cbc.ca/sp...iting-game.html

Interesting article - the comments posted after it are even more enlightening.

I was just thinking the other day that from an entertainment value point of view, going to an NHL game is really poor.  If you add up the cost of a game ticket, parking and food/beverage (and leaving out the souvenirs), you're talking close to $100 for two and a half hours of action.  Plus, all of the games are already on TV, which costs nothing to watch at home.  I can go to a movie, park for free and even if I spring for the big bucket of popcorn, my two hours of entertainment costs less than $20. Hmm....

Edited by Sabre Dance, 04 January 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[LGR4GM]

Bettman and Fehr

[OverPowerYou]

It seems like there are never two good days in a row for these CBA negotiations. I just want this to be over, whether it be by a lockout or by the season resuming, I'm just sick of hearing about it. I mean really, is it that hard to sit in a room for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and just hammer out a deal? Real people work a lot more than that during their real jobs, maybe these silver spooned cry babies should take our places and then they would appreciate what they have.

[papazoid]

i still say this will be settled in court.....


neither sides wants this deal.....


all this posturing is so both sides can claim they bargained in good faith......

[PromoTheRobot]

This has officially turned into a pissing contest.  

PTR

[Derrico]

I know we're all getting tired of hearing about this lockout but sounds like talks are going well this afternoon.  Possible disclaimer of interest tonight so the next few hours could be huge.

[Vanek-Man]

I know we're trying to remain from falling for it all over again like many of us have over the last few months, but try not to get overly excited over this....

Quote

@BretHedican
I'm hearing that the #NHL #Lockout is over! Let's get back 2 watching the greatest gm on earth! & let's not allow this to ever happen again!

Link- https://twitter.com/...657868931506176

[dudacek]

A deal is now about as close as they've been apparently:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412844

[TrueBluePhD]

dudacek, on 05 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

A deal is now about as close as they've been apparently:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412844

Last minute deal gets done IMO. With all due respect to Papazoid, I don't think either side actually wants this resolved via the courts. Way too much uncertainty.

[thanes16]

Part of me is very excited the NHL could be back in action, especially after getting to watch Team USA take gold, but another part of me wants the owners to lockout the players for the season. Players would get far less than initial offers and maybe, just maybe some of them will realize how thankful they should be. The pay/benefits they receive are far above what players got in the past. And maybe they'd also get an idea of what type of life an average citizen has.

Edited by thanes16, 05 January 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

I just saw settled play starts in two weeks.   Will they pick up schedule were it is or redo it all?

[TrueBluePhD]

bills_fan_in_raleigh, on 05 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I just saw settled play starts in two weeks.   Will they pick up schedule were it is or redo it all?

My guess is a new 48-game schedule has already been written, just waiting on an agreement.

[Vanek-Man]

bills_fan_in_raleigh, on 05 January 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I just saw settled play starts in two weeks.   Will they pick up schedule were it is or redo it all?

Most of it will be re-done, but, many of the games will remain the same... inner conference.

[OverPowerYou]

Vanek-Man, on 05 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Most of it will be re-done, but, many of the games will remain the same... inner conference.

The games that intrigue me the most are the western conference matchups. They seem to have more feistiness, pizazz and just a different more exciting flow/style

[26CornerBlitz]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Told that NHL finally moved off $60 M year 2 cap, however, still not enough for players

[Spndnchz]

26CornerBlitz, on 05 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Told that NHL finally moved off $60 M year 2 cap, however, still not enough for players

With the 300 mill make whole being 10% of revenue I'd think the players would settle for a 63 mill cap or 10% less than the current 70 million cap.

[TrueBluePhD]

Spndnchz, on 05 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

With the 300 mill make whole being 10% of revenue I'd think the players would settle for a 63 mill cap or 10% less than the current 70 million cap.

Plus, they dropped their demands for a cap on escrow, so the higher it goes the more they get hit with escrow which they universally revile.  Doesn't make much sense unless it's a negotiating tactic to get a trade on some other issue.

[26CornerBlitz]

@TheFourthPeriod
NHL moves off $60M on Yr2 cap, goes to $62.5M. Unsure if NHLPA has moved off $65M... Meanwhile, PA reiterates to members there's no deal yet

Come on boys, Compromise and get this deal done.

[LGR4GM]

Its to bad when Fehr and Bettman finally stand before the media to announce the deal that about 20k hockey fans couldnt be there just to boo so loudly no one can here them...  Both are disgraceful and every time I read about the lack of compromise and the dick measuring contest occuring it makes me hate hockey.

[Rico7]

LGR4GM, on 05 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Its to bad when Fehr and Bettman finally stand before the media to announce the deal that about 20k hockey fans couldnt be there just to boo so loudly no one can here them...  Both are disgraceful and every time I read about the lack of compromise and the dick measuring contest occuring it makes me hate hockey.

Couldn't agree more.

[Buffalo Wings]

LGR4GM, on 05 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Its to bad when Fehr and Bettman finally stand before the media to announce the deal that about 20k hockey fans couldnt be there just to boo so loudly no one can here them...  Both are disgraceful and every time I read about the lack of compromise and the dick measuring contest occuring it makes me hate hockey.

Where's the spellchecker when you need it?

[CallawaySabres]

LGR4GM, on 05 January 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Its to bad when Fehr and Bettman finally stand before the media to announce the deal that about 20k hockey fans couldnt be there just to boo so loudly no one can here them...  Both are disgraceful and every time I read about the lack of compromise and the dick measuring contest occuring it makes me hate hockey.

When I have my new ticket draft, I will be staying far away from January/early Feb games as I would feel too guilty attending. Hopefully, by the time mid Feb comes along, I'll be ready to actually cheer again from the stands.

[CallawaySabres]

http://prohockeytalk...ossible-season/

[Vanek-Man]

Update for the night owls.... 2:14am ET and sides are still talking.

[Koomkie]

CallawaySabres, on 05 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

http://prohockeytalk...ossible-season/

have to admit that i forgot about all the signings and trades that must/may occur when this thing finally breaks.
the last few months have been so frustrating that i have completely forgot about all the bobby ryan for (insert players name here) talk.
curious to see if darcy can make me forget all about this dang cba and be even more excited for NEXT season.

go sabres btw.

oh and thank you to all you great posters that have been keeping this site interesting during suck dark days.

[26CornerBlitz]

@RealKyper
Told no sign of momentum slowing dwn btween #NHLPA #NHL as of 4:30am est. Many pleasantly surprised wee hrs finally time 4 real negotiation

@TSNBobMcKenzie
In case you haven't followed @DarrenDreger's or @Real_ESPNLeBrun's updates, NHL and PA still making progress in marathon bargaining session.

Edited by 26CornerBlitz, 06 January 2013 - 04:52 AM.