[bottlecap]

Vanek's decline as a player has been shocking since the broken jaw. I keep thinking that he's been sent to the press box and then about a period or so into the game, I finally see #26 coming into the play a dollar short and a day late.

The Buffalo fans have been more than understanding but I think if he doesn't click with Torres on his line (G'Bye Stafford, Mr. Weak Link!) I think some booing of Mr. $7 million a year would be in order. I'd like to get rid of Vanek and Stafford in the offseason. Roy is the only one who's competing on that line and with his size, he's behind the 8 ball. I just don't see Vanek in synch with the boring Buffalo system, although Ruff's attempt to make him into a complete player (one takeaway per game) has been a failure too. He's just become less offensive.

[static70]

4 first round draft picks would have looked so much better, especially now.
We now know Darcy Regier was in rebuilding mode, so why in the hell would he not take the 4 1st round draft picks to build from? I mean, wasn't that offer almost 3 years ago? We could have used those picks (and I just love saying this next line) TO BUILD FROM WITHIN :lol: .

[carpandean]

Who?












;)

[ThePebble19]

bottlecap, on 04 March 2010 - 08:10 AM, said:

Vanek's decline as a player has been shocking since the broken jaw. I keep thinking that he's been sent to the press box and then about a period or so into the game, I finally see #26 coming into the play a dollar short and a day late.

The Buffalo fans have been more than understanding but I think if he doesn't click with Torres on his line (G'Bye Stafford, Mr. Weak Link!) I think some booing of Mr. $7 million a year would be in order. I'd like to get rid of Vanek and Stafford in the offseason. Roy is the only one who's competing on that line and with his size, he's behind the 8 ball. I just don't see Vanek in synch with the boring Buffalo system, although Ruff's attempt to make him into a complete player (one takeaway per game) has been a failure too. He's just become less offensive.

One could argue he is more offensive, just in a different sense of the word. ;)

I have to agree...You can at least see that Roy is giving an effort, which is far more than I see from Vanek, Stafford and Connolly every night.

[inkman]

static70, on 04 March 2010 - 08:22 AM, said:

4 first round draft picks would have looked so much better, especially now.

Please stop.

[LabattBlue]

If the Rangers could find a trading partner for Gomez, the Sabres can find someone to take Vanek off their hands. The only untouchables are Miller and Myers. The Sabres could do a lot with the 7 mil that Vanek is costing them.

He is nowhere near the player he was 2 or 3 years ago. For those who love to throw the excuse out there that guys like Vanek, Roy and Pominville were playing against 2nd and 3rd line players a couple of years ago and therefore had more success, save your breath. Watch any game for the rest of the season and tell me that opponents are throwing out "defensive/checking" lines against our top players. There is no line matching going on for the most part. These guys are simply not willing to work hard enough now that they have their big contracts.

Roy would bring the biggest return in a trade and I would love to see him go, but the Pominville/Vanek contracts are the biggest albatrosses on the team. A combined 12.4 mil cap hit thru the 13-14 season. LQ and DR showed the rest of the NHL that they aren't going to let the teams "core" get to FA.

They really showed them, didn't they? :doh:

[static70]

inkman, on 04 March 2010 - 08:46 AM, said:

Please stop.

LOL, Sorry inkman, it hurts me too. :cry:

[nfreeman]

LabattBlue, on 04 March 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

If the Rangers could find a trading partner for Gomez, the Sabres can find someone to take Vanek off their hands. The only untouchables are Miller and Myers. The Sabres could do a lot with the 7 mil that Vanek is costing them.

He is nowhere near the player he was 2 or 3 years ago. For those who love to throw the excuse out there that guys like Vanek, Roy and Pominville were playing against 2nd and 3rd line players a couple of years ago and therefore had more success, save your breath. Watch any game for the rest of the season and tell me that opponents are throwing out "defensive/checking" lines against our top players. There is no line matching going on for the most part. These guys are simply not willing to work hard enough now that they have their big contracts.

Roy would bring the biggest return in a trade and I would love to see him go, but the Pominville/Vanek contracts are the biggest albatrosses on the team. A combined 12.4 mil cap hit thru the 13-14 season. LQ and DR showed the rest of the NHL that they aren't going to let the teams "core" get to FA.

They really showed them, didn't they? :doh:

Vanek had 40 last year and was well on his way to 50 before he broke his jaw. He's having a terrible year, and I still don't understand how someone can look at him and see a player on the same level as Crosby or Ovechkin, but at the same time the Sabres could unload him in a heartbeat if they wanted to.

IMHO, Vanek has the same problem that every other alleged top 6 forward on the Sabres has: he's not mentally focused/determined/confident to be the top dog. He doesn't take the ice at the beginning of every shift knowing he's the best player on the ice and determined to make something happen. When the game isn't going his way, he doesn't seize control of it.

Having said that, I'd much rather dump (in order) Pommer, Hecht or Roy than Vanek. 40+ goal scorers are too rare in the NHL to just unload, and Vanek's done it twice already. He needs a true #1 center with both talent and heart. I really think that with a center like Kesler or Toews, Vanek's level of play would improve dramatically -- not just because he'd have better passes to convert into goals, but because his center's intensity and focus would subconsciously cause him to be more plugged into the game.

Not only that, but our hypothetical new #1 center would allow the other centers to move down to their natural roles -- TC as #2 center and Roy as #3 center or 2nd-line winger.

This is the guy the Sabres have been dying for since Black Sunday. He wasn't available yesterday, but DR or his successor needs to find him this summer.

[SwampD]

It's Lindy.

[LabattBlue]

nfreeman, on 04 March 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

Vanek had 40 last year and was well on his way to 50 before he broke his jaw. He's having a terrible year, and I still don't understand how someone can look at him and see a player on the same level as Crosby or Ovechkin, but at the same time the Sabres could unload him in a heartbeat if they wanted to.

Who sees him on the same level as Crosby or Ovechkin?

One other thing, if Vanek needs a true #1 center to be effective, how did he score 40 goals in the past without one?

[nfreeman]

LabattBlue, on 04 March 2010 - 09:57 AM, said:

Who sees him on the same level as Crosby or Ovechkin?

PAFan has argued (although not recently) that Lindy was the only thing holding him back from that level.

[nfreeman]

LabattBlue, on 04 March 2010 - 09:57 AM, said:

One other thing, if Vanek needs a true #1 center to be effective, how did he score 40 goals in the past without one?

It's a very good question that I don't have a good answer for. Even so, I don't think Vanek is lazy or mailing it in. I just think his natural level of intensity/focus isn't where it needs to be, but that it can be raised by having linemates that are in the zone. As far as that goes, his center (Roy) was better last year than this year.

[PASabreFan]

nfreeman, on 04 March 2010 - 10:00 AM, said:

PAFan has argued (although not recently) that Lindy was the only thing holding him back from that level.

Quite imprecise. I actually showed the stats that proved Vanek was a more efficient goal scorer than Ovechkin when ice time was factored in. Ovechkin's "level" -- I don't think I ever used that term.

And to be more precise, Vanek was not on his way to 50 goals before he broke his jaw. Please. The decline started much earlier and seemed to coincide with decreased ice time. We've been over this too many times. People can look up the old threads. I think there's a big problem between Vanek and Ruff, and Vanek doesn't want to be here.

[PASabreFan]

inkman, on 04 March 2010 - 08:46 AM, said:

Please stop.

Good answer. Or you could have asked, "What would those picks look like right now?"

[PASabreFan]

nfreeman, on 04 March 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

This is the guy the Sabres have been dying for since Black Sunday. He wasn't available yesterday, but DR or his successor needs to find him this summer.

Are you still beating this drum? Did you listen to Regier yesterday? Didn't he sound like someone who knows he has total job security?

[SwampD]

nfreeman, on 04 March 2010 - 10:00 AM, said:

PAFan has argued (although not recently) that Lindy was the only thing holding him back from that level.

PASabreFan, on 04 March 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

Quite imprecise. I actually showed the stats that proved Vanek was a more efficient goal scorer than Ovechkin when ice time was factored in. Ovechkin's "level" -- I don't think I ever used that term.

And to be more precise, Vanek was not on his way to 50 goals before he broke his jaw. Please. The decline started much earlier and seemed to coincide with decreased ice time. We've been over this too many times. People can look up the old threads. I think there's a big problem between Vanek and Ruff, and Vanek doesn't want to be here.

It was me and I believe that now more than ever. How many times last night did OV get the puck almost at the red line with only one Sabre back. There is nothing wrong with hangers if they are use correctly. Yet Vanek is forced to play defense at our own faceoff dots. It's Lindy.

[Kristian]

SwampD, on 04 March 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

It was me and I believe that now more than ever. How many times last night did OV get the puck almost at the red line with only one Sabre back. There is nothing wrong with hangers if they are use correctly. Yet Vanek is forced to play defense at our own faceoff dots. It's Lindy.

OV has speed, Vanek doesn't.

If he gets a 1 on 1, it'll take all but two seconds before his stick is lifted from behind.

I'm not thrilled about Lindy's "below the circles defense" either, but I doubt Vanek is mobile enough to let him hang around the red line looking for the long pass, simply because he has concrete in his skates.

I can easily see the two having issues though.

[SwampD]

Kristian, on 04 March 2010 - 10:52 AM, said:

OV has speed, Vanek doesn't.

Unless he gets a clean break at the other teams blueline, he'll get caught.

I'm not thrilled about Lindy's "below the circles defense" either, but Vanek just isn't a guy you let hang around the red line looking for the long pass, simply because he has concrete in his skates.

He's got plenty of speed. He's just not allowed to use it.

[Kristian]

SwampD, on 04 March 2010 - 10:56 AM, said:

He's got plenty of speed. He's just not allowed to use it.

Let me rephrase that, he's got what I would call "average" speed.

His acceleration though is way below that, which is what hurts him the most.

Watch him closely next time he accelerates. It looks like he's at the end of a 45 second shift, even if he just came on the ice.

[nfreeman]

PASabreFan, on 04 March 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

Quite imprecise. I actually showed the stats that proved Vanek was a more efficient goal scorer than Ovechkin when ice time was factored in. Ovechkin's "level" -- I don't think I ever used that term.

And to be more precise, Vanek was not on his way to 50 goals before he broke his jaw. Please. The decline started much earlier and seemed to coincide with decreased ice time. We've been over this too many times. People can look up the old threads. I think there's a big problem between Vanek and Ruff, and Vanek doesn't want to be here.

Well, Mr. Clinton, here's what you said exactly (link):

Quote

As good as Ovechkin? Of course not. But if you look at total time on the ice last year, and goals scored, Vanek outdid him, and Crosby, Malkin and Kovalchuk.

Vanek scored 1.91 goals for every 60 minutes of ice time he got. Ovechkin, 1.85.

Besides the flash and dash and crazy goals and celebrations and star power, how much better is Ovechkin, really?

(emphasis added)
And you're right that Vanek had started to slow down before his injury, but there is no way of knowing whether this was just a normal peak-and-valley situation and whether he would've come around. Certainly he was on pace for 50 and in fact he had a hat trick 2 games prior to getting hurt.

PASabreFan, on 04 March 2010 - 10:33 AM, said:

Are you still beating this drum? Did you listen to Regier yesterday? Didn't he sound like someone who knows he has total job security?

What is he supposed to sound like? He fundamentally believes in the long view and development from within. He also needs, as a matter of self-preservation, to promote the view that the organization is in good shape. You can believe that he is bulletproof if you like, and I can disagree, but there is certainly no way to tell whether this is true based on his press conference yesterday.

SwampD, on 04 March 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

It was me and I believe that now more than ever. How many times last night did OV get the puck almost at the red line with only one Sabre back. There is nothing wrong with hangers if they are use correctly. Yet Vanek is forced to play defense at our own faceoff dots. It's Lindy.

SwampD, on 04 March 2010 - 10:56 AM, said:

He's got plenty of speed. He's just not allowed to use it.

Did Lindy not require him to play D last year, when he had 40? Did Lindy decide over the summer to put weights in his skates to slow him down? Why in the world would Lindy want to shackle his best goal-scorer? Isn't it in Lindy's interests for Vanek to be the best player he can be?