[freester]

nfreeman, on 05 February 2010 - 12:03 PM, said:

There is zero chance Kovy would've resigned with the Sabres. And flashy offense doesn't win Cups. Team defense, goaltending, special teams, clutch play and blood and guts are what wins Cups.

As for whether the Sabres are a contender: right now they are 4-4-1 against Washington, NJ and Pittsburgh. They are in a bit of a rut right now, just like every team goes through at some point, and I agree that they need elite-level scoring from somewhere. But they are a good, solid team, with excellent goaltending and coaching, and showing signs of life from the top 2 lines. Vanek in particular, who is supposed to be their elite guy, is coming around -- I thought he looked very good against Ottawa.

I think this team is being rebuilt well, is young and is going to be in contending position for the next few years. It needs some tinkering and some guys to step up -- not a panicky move for a rental.

Vanek is not an elite scorer. He does not remotely compare to Kovy. Miller is tiring out from playing too much. You need elite players (other than goalie) to win the cup. We don't have any.

[PASabreFan]

X. Benedict, on 05 February 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

Sure signs the end is nigh.

Grow a set already. My God, are you Darcy Marcy? Is this what he does in his spare time? Seriously, you're the Poster Boy for Mediocrity.

If you don't understand why fans are a lot more skeptical about this team after the last several weeks -- the most worrisome trend being Miller's decline -- you haven't been watching too closely.

[Skibum]

If he could be signed long-term, yes. If not, no.

[nfreeman]

Moongate, on 05 February 2010 - 12:39 PM, said:

So Pittsburgh didn't need Crosby or Malkin to win the Cup last year... Detroit didn't need to bring in Hossa to make it to the Finals, either. That's good, 'cause the Sabres don't have any players at that talent level. So, they should be a shoe-in for the Finals this year, right?

Yep, Vanek is looking real good right now - and the team still lost to the Penguins and the Senators.

Of course, the team rebuild is going great, too. Funny thing, though; I can't seem to find the players in the Buffalo system that fall into the Ovy, Crosby, Kovy, Kane, Brodeur, etc. category. Maybe I missed something? We have Miller, Vanek, Myers and maybe Connolly. Everyone else is a different shade of average. Yep, the rebuild is going great.

"We're gonna win that Cup! We're going to win that Stanley Cup!"

Although this post is fairly incoherent, I think you mean that teams need elite players to win Cups. I don't disagree with this (although I'll also note that Detroit and Pittsburgh both won it without Hossa, and plenty of excellent players -- like Kovy, for instance, and Ovechkin -- haven't won anything in the playoffs).

Here's my response: Miller is an elite player, Myers is likely to get there and Vanek, although certainly not so far this year, might get there. That's your Vezina contender, Norris contender and Richard contender right there. You surround those 3 with good complementary players, play good defense and then you're in the hunt every year. You are right that it won't work if those guys don't deliver.

As for how the rebuild is going: the Sabres, after missing the playoffs for 2 years in a row, are on pace to finish with 106 points and win their division, and are #3 in the NHL in GA. This is AFTER their worst 8-game stretch of the year.

freester, on 05 February 2010 - 12:46 PM, said:

Vanek is not an elite scorer. He does not remotely compare to Kovy. Miller is tiring out from playing too much. You need elite players (other than goalie) to win the cup. We don't have any.

Kovy's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 29, 38, 41, 52. (total: 160; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)
Vanek's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 25, 43, 36, 40. (total: 144; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

[static70]

nfreeman, on 05 February 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

Kovy's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 29, 38, 41, 52. (total: 160; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)
Vanek's goal-scoring in his 1st 4 years: 25, 43, 36, 40. (total: 144; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).
Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.
Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.
To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

[Onceagain]

X. Benedict, on 05 February 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

Sure signs the end is nigh.

[carpandean]

One favor from all the Kovy supporters: please don't say "I told you so" if he has a strong first game; they're playing the freakin' Maple Leafs. ;)

I would laugh if Phaneuf laid a season ending hit on Kovy in his first game. :thumbsup:

[PASabreFan]

static70, on 05 February 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).
Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.
Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.
To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

But Kovy's ice time isn't suppressed, he wasn't ask to go win a Selke and he isn't planted in front of the goalie on the power play to get whack a mole-d around.

[Onceagain]

The tough thing about this trade was not that the sabres did not get Kovy, but that the Devils did. We could very well end up seeing NJ in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs this year and they will be a much tougher out. However, I still think their system is built around an aging goalie and in the end, even with Kovy, they will not create enough offense to get it done. With the way Ottawa has been playing as of late and the inevitable late season Miller fatigue from being ridden like a stallion for 6 months, I can see the sabres losing the division by a few points to the Sens and falling to the 6 spot in the conference. I think this act could work out for the better as Ruff is one of the best playoff coaches and his teams always seem to find an edge, especially as underdogs.

[ntjacks79]

Moongate, on 05 February 2010 - 12:39 PM, said:

So Pittsburgh didn't need Crosby or Malkin to win the Cup last year... Detroit didn't need to bring in Hossa to make it to the Finals, either. That's good, 'cause the Sabres don't have any players at that talent level. So, they should be a shoe-in for the Finals this year, right?

Yep, Vanek is looking real good right now - and the team still lost to the Penguins and the Senators.

Of course, the team rebuild is going great, too. Funny thing, though; I can't seem to find the players in the Buffalo system that fall into the Ovy, Crosby, Kovy, Kane, Brodeur, etc. category. Maybe I missed something? We have Miller, Vanek, Myers and maybe Connolly. Everyone else is a different shade of average. Yep, the rebuild is going great.

"We're gonna win that Cup! We're going to win that Stanley Cup!"

Come on. This is not fair. You don't think Buffalo would have taken these players in the draft if they could have? You're talking about guys everyone KNEW would be good and were the first few picks in the draft. The only way Buffalo gets them is both to completely go south and have the worst record in hockey AND hope one of these kind of guys is available the year they do (AND get lucky in the ping pong roll).
I'm completely pissed about Wednesday's game, and I don't like what I see in the last 5-7 games where Buffalo played a good hockey team, but it's obvious that "The Plan" that Regier has (and I'll even give Quinn some grudging respect) is working as well as it can. The team has more financial constraints than most, has never gotten "lucky" in draft position (unlike the Penguins who are ridiculously lucky), and yet still fields a pretty solid team. The Bills could only be so lucky...

[nfreeman]

static70, on 05 February 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).
Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.
Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.
To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

Kovy's assists in his 1st 4 years: 22, 29, 46, 46. (total: 143; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)
Vanek's assists in his 1st 4 years: 23, 41, 28, 24. (total: 116; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

The difference: 9 assists per year, when Kovy averaged 32% more ice time.

Having said all this, I don't disagree that Kovy is better than Vanek, and almost certainly will have a better career. But there's been more sizzle than steak in Kovy's career thus far. And I don't think it's fair to say that he elevates those around him -- that team has been "elevated" to 1 playoff series and zero playoff wins during Kovy's career. I'm not at all sure that Vanek will get back to 40-40-80 consistently, but I think it's reasonably likely, and that (especially in 17 minutes per game) is pretty close to an elite player.

[PASabreFan]

ntjacks79, on 05 February 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Come on. This is not fair. You don't think Buffalo would have taken these players in the draft if they could have? You're talking about guys everyone KNEW would be good and were the first few picks in the draft. The only way Buffalo gets them is both to completely go south and have the worst record in hockey AND hope one of these kind of guys is available the year they do (AND get lucky in the ping pong roll).
I'm completely pissed about Wednesday's game, and I don't like what I see in the last 5-7 games where Buffalo played a good hockey team, but it's obvious that "The Plan" that Regier has (and I'll even give Quinn some grudging respect) is working as well as it can. The team has more financial constraints than most, has never gotten "lucky" in draft position (unlike the Penguins who are ridiculously lucky), and yet still fields a pretty solid team. The Bills could only be so lucky...

I won't berate you for not knowing this -- because I didn't know it until recently -- but the Sabres and Pens had the same chance of getting Crosby.

[carpandean]

PASabreFan, on 05 February 2010 - 02:34 PM, said:

I won't berate you for not knowing this -- because I didn't know it until recently -- but the Sabres and Pens had the same chance of getting Crosby.

Probabilistically, yes. Statistically, no. Both had the same chance of getting the first pick in that draft when the balls were spinning around. After they fell, however, Pittsburgh had a 100% chance to pick him, while Buffalo had a 0% chance. Pittsburgh got lucky.

[static70]

nfreeman, on 05 February 2010 - 02:34 PM, said:

Kovy's assists in his 1st 4 years: 22, 29, 46, 46. (total: 143; avg ice time: over 21.75 minutes per game)
Vanek's assists in his 1st 4 years: 23, 41, 28, 24. (total: 116; avg ice time: under 16.5 minutes per game)

The difference: 9 assists per year, when Kovy averaged 32% more ice time.

Having said all this, I don't disagree that Kovy is better than Vanek, and almost certainly will have a better career. But there's been more sizzle than steak in Kovy's career thus far. And I don't think it's fair to say that he elevates those around him -- that team has been "elevated" to 1 playoff series and zero playoff wins during Kovy's career. I'm not at all sure that Vanek will get back to 40-40-80 consistently, but I think it's reasonably likely, and that (especially in 17 minutes per game) is pretty close to an elite player.

Good numbers, and the intangibles are the difference. I would rather have Kovy at Vaneks salary :thumbsup: . But when its all said and done, he does make NJ a better team. How much so remains to be seen, but he should pad some ones stats in Devils land (Parise and Zajak maybe?)

[Vanek-Man]

If the Sabres got Kovy, they would still need to go out and get a replacement for Kennedy for the 3rd line and trading Butler away, means we would 100% need another d-men. That's 2 more trades to happen. Getting Kovy and only Kovy does not fix this team nor make it more "Cup contender" then it is now. There are still flaws on the team that we would be not fixing. The Devils have less flaws then the Sabres do and this made sense to them. Realisticly, we have more flaws. Getting Kovy wouldn't guarentee anything.

[PASabreFan]

carpandean, on 05 February 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

Probabilistically, yes. Statistically, no. Both had the same chance of getting the first pick in that draft when the balls were spinning around. After they fell, however, Pittsburgh had a 100% chance to pick him, while Buffalo had a 0% chance. Pittsburgh got lucky.

:censored:

[nobody]

Vanek-Man, on 05 February 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

If the Sabres got Kovy, they would still need to go out and get a replacement for Kennedy for the 3rd line and trading Butler away, means we would 100% need another d-men. That's 2 more trades to happen. Getting Kovy and only Kovy does not fix this team nor make it more "Cup contender" then it is now. There are still flaws on the team that we would be not fixing. The Devils have less flaws then the Sabres do and this made sense to them. Realisticly, we have more flaws. Getting Kovy wouldn't guarentee anything.

NJ also got defenceman Anssi Salmela back in the trade.

[Vanek-Man]

nobody, on 05 February 2010 - 04:20 PM, said:

NJ also got defenceman Anssi Salmela back in the trade.

Sabres need to ADD a blueliner right now.... and by losing Butler, they would have needed to add someone other then a 25 year old stay at home d-men Salmela. Salmela used to play for the Devils, so they know what he is all about, thus making even more sense for NJ. Also, their #1 d-men Paul Martin will be back after the Olympic break. This trade makes tons of sense for NJ. Makes absolute zero sense for Buffalo is what I am saying.

[freester]

static70, on 05 February 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I like the numbers comparison on goal scoring, but to be quite frank on this, Vanek is nowhere nears the player Kovy is. Over those 4 years Vanek played with a great team 2 of those years with Drury/Briere (both having career years with Buf).
Kovy hasn't had that luxury in Atl. in those years posted.
Also, Kovy's skill as a setup man isn't taken into consideration. Which blows Vanek away.
To compare the 2 players isn't really close to an accurate assesment is the point I am trying to make here. Vanek does not elevate the stats of the players around him like Kovy does, this is a direct reflection of the talent difference between the 2.

well stated-Kovy is a top 10 player Vanek is barely a top 40 player. Just because we grossly overpaid for Vanek does not make him a superstar. Also Kovy has many more assists than vanek. I think that nfreeman lives in a fantasy world. I live in atlanta and I have seen Kovy play many times. He is exactly what we needed to get over the hump.

[Moongate]

nfreeman, on 05 February 2010 - 02:11 PM, said:

Although this post is fairly incoherent, I think you mean that teams need elite players to win Cups. I don't disagree with this...

Fairly incoherent? It's Friday and I just sat through a three-hour conference about meeting government regulations. It's shocking that I could still type!
:blink: